Climbing Merit Badge Age

[MDEagle]

I have said before we need a mandatory move to Venturing at a certain age. Then the older boys will have these more advanced items to play with.

This idea could merge into the statements that I've made on another thread that the Webelos program is too long, and that the age disparity between a fifth grader and a kindergartener (Lions) is too great to lump them into the same Pack.

A sample of what I'm talking about in terms of combining the ideas, recognizing there is room for tweaking:

Traditional Cub/Webelos program (including Lions, since that seems to be the current thinking): K-4th grade

Traditional Boy Scout: 5th-8th grade

Venturing: 9th-21.

That would move boys out of Cubs earlier, while still giving adequate time to earn Arrow of Light, give a boy 4 years in a traditional Troop, and give some time for boys to physically mature before tackling some more demanding adventures. When a boy graduates to high school, he also graduates to Venturing.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons that will be cited about the difficulties in implementing this... but I bet if the program were structured this way, things would sort themselves out.

[wagionvigil]

On the same page! This is where it needs to go if we are to keep the older youth.

[WeeWillie]

There are merit badges that younger Scouts do not do well in for either physical or academic reasons. They include: Climbing, Rifle - Muzzle Loading, Orienteering, Pioneering, Canoeing, Horsemenship, Bird Study. They slow the pace. When they don't succeed their parents blame the instructor/camp.

[wagionvigil]

We were doing our Field excerises for CLimbing Certification at Quincy Quarry just out side of Boston last week. AS we were packing up last Tuesday here came about 8 to 10 rug rats with a couple of adults and a lady from an outfitter. All had Helmet,Gloves harness and a figure 8. They were going rappelling. These were Cub Scouts not Webelos. Our section director spoke to them and found out some details at which time he said it was a good time for us to leave asap. WHen we went back to camp about an hour south he spoke to the course profesional which happened to be the CE in The Boston Council. He was not a happy camper and was going to deal with it. The pack leadership is in trouble and the outfitter is in trouble. Outfitters must remember that they can only do program if approved by the Local council. Unit leaders that violate the G2SS or any other safety measures can be removed with a simple letter from the CE saying you are no longer registered in the ++ council. No meeting,No hearing required. I can see this happening in the near future over failing to file a tour permit. Please don't be that person. Go by the rules regardless of what your parents want. You are the one that will pay in the end.

[WeeWillie]

Wagionvigil

Unless the outfitter deliberately ignored BSA climbing policies I don't see how he is in trouble. Have you considered getting the outfitter to become a member of your Council Outdoor Committee / Climbing Committee?

The pack leadership is another issue.

Several years ago the SM of our affiliated troop shattered both his ankles when he smashed into the front of his jeep that he was using as an anchor for his zip line. Needless to say, I crossed over my WB-II Den (I was DL) to another troop.

This week we will be going to Rocks & Ropes Climbing Gym. My approved LTP arrived today. (The owner is on our Council Climbing Committee)

[wagionvigil]

This was in the Boston area and I was there for Climbing School. My home council is 700 miles from there BUT I have contacted all the outfitters that provide CLimbing and have given them the BSA Rules. The Outfitters around here are very open to BSA Policey as they want to have the safest possible activity they can. AS far as the outfitter being in trouble. The Trouble is they are no longer approved as a Provider for BSA activities.

[Billiken]

Could someone send me a link to the belay age requirement.

I do not see it in the on-line version of Climb on Safely:

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/20-099/

[wagionvigil]

It is in the Training Syllabus I sent you a copy and will post the information here also

CUB SCOUTS
• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained adult spotters.
(This pertains to climbing on boulders or other steep faces without going more
than a few feet off the ground, protected by spotters rather than a rope belay.)
• Climbing in a climbing gym or using a portable wall or other age-appropriate
facility with close supervision and age-appropriate instruction and equipment.
• Climbers will be lowered by a belayer; no rappelling by Cub Scouts.
• No belaying by Cub Scouts.
WEBELOS SCOUTS
• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained adult
spotters.
• Climbing in a climbing gym or using a portable wall or other age-appropriate
facility with close supervision and age-appropriate instruction and equipment.
• Rappelling with a trained adult belayer.
• No belaying by Webelos Scouts. This include 10 ½ year old Boy Scouts
BOY SCOUTS AGES 11 TO 12
• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained spotters.
• Top-rope climbing with trained belayers.
• Rappelling with trained belayers.
• Belaying with supervision and a backup. (this eliminates Climbing Merit Badge for This Age Group)
OLDER BOY SCOUTS, VARSITY SCOUTS, AND VENTURERS
• Bouldering no higher than the climber’s shoulder height, with trained spotters.
• Top-rope climbing with trained belayers.
• Belaying with supervision.
• Rappelling with trained belayers.
• All council and district climbing must be top-roped.
• Practice lead climbing with a top-rope belay.
• Units with youth who are at least 13 years of age may elect to participate in lead
climbing and/or snow and ice climbing with training from a nationally recognized
organization that trains climbing instructors. BSA climbing directors and
instructors are not trained in lead climbing or snow and ice climbing.

Note: Boy Scouts under age 11 Fall under Webelos

[GWG]

I am new to this forum and have just started going through the information regarding Climbing Merit Badge. I have been a Climbing Merit Badge counselor for several years. The majority of the instruction has been performed at a local climbing gym. When I first started, I had a standard that each climbing team worked in groups of 3: a climber, a belayer, and a back up belayer. They would rotate through these positions for their 3 climbs. If at anytime during the climbing session, I saw a climbing group without the backup belayer, they would receive one warning. If that group did it again, their harness was taken and I would not award them their badge. I had reviewed this process with the person who was over the climbing program for our district and they felt it was an appropriate approach which kept safety first and foremost. I have never used age as a determining factor on who could participate in my merit badge program. Maturity level is a much more important factor in my opinion. My youngest son started belaying me outside with me on lead when he was 10. He had been climbing for a couple of years and knew what he was doing and more importantly, I knew he had the ability and knowledge to handle the responsibility of being my belayer.

I have since moved to another part of the country and want to make sure I am doing things correctly with regard to the most up to date standards of the BSA. By having this 3 scout team, is this in compliance with the BSA standards? Does having a backup belayer serve as a disqualifier for someone earning the merit badge?

Thanks for your input.

GWG

[wagionvigil]

I sent you a copy of the COS Training with the BSA Age Guidelines How you deal with them is up to you.

A belay backup is a smart procedure but the scout needs to learn they are responsible for the climbers life and MY opinion is that using the BSA Guidelines of older scouts Says Belay with supervision is where the MB should begin. If you "MUST" have a backup you are not ready for the MB.IMHO

I am all for kids climbing and learning skills necessary to prepare them for the MB later in their Scouting years.

[GWG]

If you "MUST" have a backup you are not ready for the MB.

Whenever I am teaching a belay class, the first time the person belays a climber, I am always holding onto the tail of the rope as a backup. It is strictly a precautionary measure.

Working with the scouts in groups of 3, one being the backup belayer is again a precautionary measure which I've used that has resulted in zero injuries. It is not done as a means of lowering the level of importance of the role of the belayer. It is at this point that if I observe a scout having difficulty getting the process of belaying down, I let them know that they are not ready to do this. I've done this with older scouts as well as younger scouts. We have a practice rope that they can use to work on the belay technique without having a climber. When I see individuals having trouble, I bring them to this rope and work with them individually until I see that they are able to manage the rope properly.

At the end of every Climbing Merit Badge session, I always state that the skills they have learned is just the beginning of the training to become skilled at climbing. It serves as an exposure to climbing that if they are interested in pursuing it further, they should by all means seek out additional instruction.

GWG

[wagionvigil]

One of the main problems with climbing and scouts is that most leaders only want to do something if the scouts get a badge."Why should we climb if Johnny is not getting a badge?" I really do not know how to correct this mind set. I am never asked just to take a troop climbing. It is only for the MB. This tells me something needs changed.
I had open climbing this past summer and had very little participation. When it was announced the SM's were all for it Until it was announced that no requirements will be signed off. Their thinking on this was Johnny could not take Climbing due to Camp Restrictions but they could get at least a partial by taking part in the Open Tower Time. WHy do we need to give a badge for just having fun?

[GWG]

WHy do we need to give a badge for just having fun?

AMEN!!!!!

At the climbing gym I go to now in Windgap, PA, there are scout groups that go on a regular basis. When I am there, I will ask the SM if there is interest in Climbing MB. I let them know what the process is and they are often very interested in it. To your point, it's always refreshing to see the scout troops scheduling an activity because it's a new experience for the scouts or is something fun.

Climbing certainly isn't for everyone, I for one am thankful for that, but I always try to encourage people to at least try it. Then they can make an informed decision as to whether they like it or not.

[lifescoutforlife]

They interveiwed my son at the end of the article, there are any where from 100 to 300 kids at the pool a day and he is one of the few that can scale the new "AQUA WALL"
http://timesobserver.com/page/content.d ... l?nav=5006

[wagionvigil]

10 11 year olds are like Monkeys climbing. That is not the problem. The problem is the safety issues in belaying. I like the actibvities they are putting at pools to increase attendance. But inreality these have very little to do with CMB.

[lifescoutforlife]

I should have put this under a different post because my son isn't even a Boy Scout till next year. I guess I'm just proud that he can climb the wall and 90% + can't.

[wagionvigil]

Those little guys are like monkeys and yep you should be proud .the aqua walls are really neet.I know many scout camps are putting them in.

[BroFix]

Most boys can climb at a fairly young age. Yet they do lack the maturity for a lot of the elements of the merit badge. If the are not mature enough to belay then they will receive a partial and have to work on it more. This happens all the time with many merit badges.

I think a lot of leaders push the boys through to fast. We have to many 13 year old Eagle Scouts not really understanding the rights and responsibilities that go along with it. Not to say all boys are not ready. My point is, treat each boy different. We shouldn't have a standard of care. Each boy is unique. Treat them as such.

[wagionvigil]

Many Climbing MB Counselors do not give or accept Partials. I know I do not and most of my friends that are counselors do not. When I do an instructors course I always tell them it is up to them But due to the safety involved I do not. I am very up front with everyone before I start a Class that this is allor nothing. They only thing you will get out of it if you do not do everything is the experience.

[wagionvigil]

Boys youngervthan 13 can not belay by them selves with supervision and to get the MB you must be able to safely belay.Which eliminates those under 13. But BSA will not say this.