Climbing Merit Badge Needs UPDATED??

[wagionvigil]

http://www.onrope1.com/mythbusters.htm

If you follow the link you will find some very interesting facts that might need to be updated in the BSA Climbing Program. Modern Equipment is getting better and better and we need to update the program to go with the improvements.

[Ridge Runner]

Good link....being saying some of this stuff for years. I agree that the Climbing merit badge needs updating, and reworking. For the now, imho...it's just another giveme MB as written.

Improvements I would like to see. First, an age limit set at 14, then a set of general requirments followed with 2 options. Option One would be for Rock Climbing, and Option Two, for Alpine.

Additionally each option would require showing a proven knowledge of self rescue techniques now lacking in the current requirements. And for the Alpine option - rigging and demonstrating a 3:1 pulley system for crevasse rescues with 3 different types of anchors - ice ax arrests - and crampon techniques for ascending and decending.

[wagionvigil]

AMen on the age. I am going to approach the subject with Chris Moon and see what happens next week at Squanto. Right now at Laurel Caverns we have an age 12 Which I am going to move to 13 next year. AT scout camp we use 13 unless the scout has previous experience. Take a look at

www.laurelcaverns.com
we do all the rappelling and climbing in the cave.

[Ridge Runner]

Amazing how many Climbing Directors are pushing for an age limit on this MB. However, National seems not to be listening

on a side note... done very litte cave climbing and repelling....but I did my graduate level of rock climbing here....El Cap in 73 with a rack of home made chocks and pins

[wagionvigil]

Here are some changes would like to see

Age requirement!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Update of bad information that needs changed with new technology
ie: Rope and dirt,gasoline etc
Aluminum Carabiners if dropped
Rope Age 4 years ,come on, that is ancient.
New Devices/techniques for belaying
There are more but this is a start

Here is part of the age problem.
Fact:There is no age for any merit badge we all know that But
Fact: Climb On Safley states that you must be 13 to belay without a back up belayer. SO COS Takes control of the age. BUT most SM do not see this or want to see or hear this.

[scouter01]

I don't like age limit, pretty unfair when it lets the older runts and bans the younger giants that could be way more mature......

[wagionvigil]

All Climbing is operated under Climb on Safely and it is pretty specific about age appropriate activities. A young scout can rappel and they can climb they just cannot belay by themselves which eliminates them from the MB.

[scouter01]

were I did it, at a solid rock gym thing, any one could do it, you just had to pull rope thorugh it. I would describve the belaying thing as a one way valve since the rope couldn't go back thourhg, so no one could fall unless the rope broke.

[wagionvigil]

Don't take this wrong BUT what was the device called? You apparently did not learn much about the equipment you were using. We use a grigri for belaying at the climbing wall and it keeps the rope from spooling through BUT that is not the problem you must lower the climber back to the ground safely and hence lies the problem the lowering!

[scouter01]

I did take it a while ago and when I googled the gri gri, it looked kida of what we used.

but the device had a little bar, and only when u pulled the bar down, could u let them down. letting them down was very easy, and all u had to do was feed the robe in and hod the bar and gravity did the rest.

[Ridge Runner]

Here are some changes would like to see

Age requirement!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Update of bad information that needs changed with new technology
ie: Rope and dirt,gasoline etc
Aluminum Carabiners if dropped
Rope Age 4 years ,come on, that is ancient.
New Devices/techniques for belaying
There are more but this is a start

Here is part of the age problem.
Fact:There is no age for any merit badge we all know that But
Fact: Climb On Safley states that you must be 13 to belay without a back up belayer. SO COS Takes control of the age. BUT most SM do not see this or want to see or hear this.

If I may add a few extras....however, these may be somewhat of an overkill, but Climbing, like any sport requires training, and knowledge. Currently, the knowledge side of that equation is greatly lacking. However, it's better to throw out a lot of material at first, then weed back....

An addition to the first aid requirement - Maine Spinal Protocols
A basic understanding of fall factors.
A general understanding of Kn's, and gear limitations in regard to Kn's
A general understanding of tensile strength to working loads in a rope
A general understanding of shearing forces in a rope.

I would also like to see a requirement for a single pitch A5 route using a top rope belay to back up the bottom belay with the lead climber setting protection, and the bottom belayer working from a belay seat.

On a side note...a technique that I use to train scouts in tying climbing knots, coiling the rope, and doing rope insepections is to have then stand on a 8 inch by 8 inch section of plywood in harness and tied off. At first, they don't understand the reason for this, but it clicks when they are on the rock.

[cballman]

ok guys i see two rope geeks haveing a awesome discussion here. the problem that I see with this is that I will have to agree with both of you. I would like to learn more about the new requirements that you both have suggested not to make the badge harder but to learn more about the strengths and other geek stuff.

[wagionvigil]

There is nothing like the smell of burning Kernmantle in the Morning

[wagionvigil]

re: Knot Tying Great Idea But I have done one better. In the dark! SInce I do alot of things 100' underground and there are times the lights go out it a plus to know the required knots with your eyes closed. AL:thpoug I have never included that in a CLimbing Class I have told the units this is how you knwo if they are correct or not. But I have done them with the Venturing Caving Elective. They must rappel at last 30' in the dark using helmet lights and then reattach and climb the rope they rappel on. Again ty in the dark.

[wagionvigil]

OK CB here are some starters. 1kn =225lbs and all climbing equipment is rated in Kn including force on a rope during a fall. I will give an example.
I have two carabiners from the same mfg. both are the same size and dimensions. 1 is aluminum and the other is steel the aluminum is rated at 30 Kn the steel at 72 Kn But both are rated at 8Kn on the gate. This is the type of technicial information that should be included.
We have other types of climbing than top rope,lead and bouldering. How about ice climbing and mountaineering? These should be explained in the MB but are not. Instead on First aid Knowledge. It should be First Aid MB.
While I am there CPR Certification should be required. And Reading the MB book should be required as a requirement.

PS Kn =kilonewton

[Ridge Runner]

ok guys i see two rope geeks haveing a awesome discussion here. the problem that I see with this is that I will have to agree with both of you. I would like to learn more about the new requirements that you both have suggested not to make the badge harder but to learn more about the strengths and other geek stuff.

geeks ???

Fair enough, I'll start with Myth #4: A High Strength Frictionless Hitch tie off needs 3 wraps around the anchor. and my solution being borrowed from the days of sail in the 18th century.

Here's how to tie a Man of War runner....first, train with about 8 feet of 10.5 to 11 mm trash rope. A warning, never use webbing with this runner.

Begin by forming the rope into the letter S. On each side you'll have a bight, and a free end. Starting on the right, tie the free end around it's bight using a grapevine knot. Repeat on the other side.
Dress the knots, and snug up. You should have two adjustable loops.
After a few practise ties to get the hang of it, tie it around a small tree snugging it up tight. Again several practise ties.
Lastly, tie the rig again, but add one wrap around the tree and snug up firm to the anchor. Now with the larger loop tie a Figure 8 single bight at the end. Dress the knot and clip in. I normally add a rope thimble into this bight which prevents the rope making a tight bend over the carabiner.

[wagionvigil]

2007 Climbing Standards I see some noted changes
rope life 5 years Includes all cordage
Harnesses 7 years

Helmets according to helmet mfg. recomendations
Getting there S_L_O_W_L_Y

[Ridge Runner]

Getting rope life down to 5 years is a start, but still a little dicy. I'd like to toss my mine after one season. Consider the camp who's climbing/COPE program may see only a hundred or so partiscipants, as compared to the super camps who may run close to a thousand on one rope. By the end of the season the super camp's rope should be classified as non useable, and tossed. But, because of the standards, aren't.

Anyway, for those still fuzzy on kilo Newtons, Kilo Newtons (kN) are used to express the rated strengths of nearly all vertical and climbing products as opposed to kilograms ( kg ). This is the preferred method in accordance with CE and UIAA legislation. A newton is a measure of a force as opposed to a mass (1 kN would be about the same amount of pressure, or about 224 foot pounds of energy a healthy Scoutmaster standing still would be exerting on the ground beneath his feet).

That is, 1 Newton is equivalent to the force theat would have to be exerted on a 1 kg mass to accelerate at a rate of 1 m/s.

for a better explaination....

http://www.southeastclimbing.com/faq/fa ... forces.htm

[wagionvigil]

Any one operating a Climbing program would have the good sense to retire rope that is used alot. I change rope about 4 tiems a year at laurel Caverns. AT the Jamboree we changed the rappel lines every day and the belay lines every other day. Needless to say we went through alot of rope. Jamnboree temperature 100+ had alot to do with it.
Laurel Caverns Temperature 52 year round.
Our scout camp operates 7 weeks and has about 6 to 10 boys a week take climbing so the use is not that heavy. On the other hand Heritage Has alot more boys per week BUT they charge extra for COPE and Climbing Plus they limit the Numbers in the class.

[wagionvigil]

Thought!!!
How many of your camps charge a fee for COPE or CLimbing MB? And if they do how much?