Climbing Merit Badge Age

[optimist]

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 21 Jul 2004 03:23 pm Post subject: Climbing Merit
Badge Age

I am interested in at what age everyone thinks a Boy should be
allowed to take CLimbing Merit Badge. I have a problem with
scoutmasters sending new or 1st year scouts to take the merit
badge. OK They know how to treat the injuries and they have
demonstrated CPR. But DO they really have the maturity to take
such a high risk Merit Badge? I say not and I teach this merit
badge year around. I would like to see two things before they
take it. One First Aid Merit Badge and Current CPR
Certification.
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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 122

Posted: 21 Jul 2004 08:13 pm Post subject:

While there are several activities that the BSA assigns
specific minimum age requirements, climbing is not one of
them. Since the BSA tends to err on the side of caution, I
tend to agree with their assessments, especially since we're
talking about a summer camp environment where the risks are
generally lower and more well known. So I believe calling this
a safety issue may not be warranted.

Instead, I believe this to be a summer camp program issue.
Climbing is an activity which has appeal for older Scouts.
Since getting older Scouts to summer camp can sometimes be
difficult, I believe it is in the best interests of the camps
to reserve some activities for older Scouts. Climbing would
serve this purpose well. Some people might object saying all
activities should be shared equally but when a camp offers
35-40 merit badges, reserving three or four to encourage older
Scout participation shouldn't ruin the experience for 1st and
2nd year campers.

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 06:49 am Post subject: RE AGe

ACtually I Manage the Climbing Program at a Local Geological
Park. I see Scoutmasters bringing scouts that just crossedover
to take climbing merit badge. They have gone through the First
aid and CPR at troop meeting before arriving. But ths maturity
level is lacking and when belaying there have been issues. I
have suggested we set an age but I am told by management that
there is nothing in the Climbing MB Book that does that.
Scout camps can and do set limits to attract older scouts but
it is hard to set these limits as a business and dealing with
scoutmasters.
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buffalo2
Scout

Joined: 22 Jul 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Across the river
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 10:55 am Post subject:

I've been presenting the Climbing MB within our Troop for
almost a year; we began with First Class rank as a
prerequisite - keeps the #s down a bit and adds some
incentive. As the boys get more experienced I'm thinking about
changing this to First Class rank or First Aid MB and see how
it goes.

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 11:04 am Post subject: climbing age

BUT this needs to be done on a National Level. WE cannot make
up our own rules. I am pushing for a requirement change to
address this.
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 05:50 pm Post subject:

yes I agree there should be some sort of age requirement
becuase you need to be mature to do the merit badge. I did it
extremely fun. but you have to be mature. We had one kid with
us, only immature kid, who didnt listen and got himself stuck.
the guy teaching was to say the least extremely ticked off.
that guy was MAD!!!!!!!!
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Troop 469
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 25 Jul 2004 03:23 pm Post subject:

I disagree. Age doesn't necessarily show maturity. If an
11-year-old kid is mature enough and wants to take the
Climbing Merit Badge, there's no stopping him. However, to
exclude him only because of his age is wrong.
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Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 12:29 pm Post subject:

its more of a generalization we cant put a requirement that
says "once the scout has reached necessary maturity"
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Troop 469
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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 122

Posted: 26 Jul 2004 05:43 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately, Firefish, if you set limits because of the need
for maturity and then you fail to account for maturity, you
have just denied a Scout an opportunity. If you treat the
mature Scouts the same way you treat the immature Scouts
because they are the same age, the mature Scouts will likely
quit (and I don't blame them).

Because of this, age limits are used as a last resort in
Scouting. Instead, the BSA trains Scout leaders to recognize
maturity levels and encourage Scouts to participate in
activities which best suit their needs. Not all Scout leaders
get the training they need and that, combined with
inexperience, leads to problems like those we are discussing
here.

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 07:13 pm Post subject:

your right but ask wagionvigil about when an immature scout
does climbing!
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Troop 469
A Fighting Irish

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 07:26 pm Post subject: AGE

Age and Maturity are two different items. What I would like to
see are two items added to the Requirements. This would at
leasst eliminate SCOUTMASTERS FROM BRINGING A Scout that just
joined the troop from taking this MB. Those two items are
First Aid Merit Badge and CPR Certification.

IN MArch I had boys that just crossed the bridge taking the
Mertit Badge. At best they were getting a partial at worst
they were scared of scouting . The SM Thought this was a good
teambuilding excerise and to see what the new boys were made
of.
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 08:16 am Post subject:

Then tell the SM that they should all take C.O.P.E. or
something along that lines. Climbing is not meant as an
introductory merit badge.
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Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 09:32 am Post subject: RE

you are absolutely correct BUT again they must be 13 to take
COPE so adding those two requitrements solves the problem.
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 05:19 pm Post subject:

The council run summer camp we attended this year required
that the scouts be 14 years old to work on the climbing MB, or
to use the climb and rapelling tower.
Dont know if this unique to the camp or if it is a council or
national guide line.
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 05:32 pm Post subject: Age

They are using COPE Guide Lines which is ok at a Summer
Camp.AS most towers are inspected under COPE and not
Rappelling.I know very few camps that have a COPE Director and
a Climbing Director. ANd to inspect a tower under climbing you
need both and they cannot be the same person. I teach climbing
at a Cave that has climbing and rappelling inside the cave
about 100' under ground, Pretty cool, SCoutmasters will argru
that there is nothing in the Merit Badge or Guide to safe
scouting that prohibits the newby from taking Climbing. ANd
they are correct!
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[optimist]

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cballman
Second Class

Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Nicholasville KY
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: climbing age

In our troop we have no age limit but and there is a but we go
over the Climb ON Safely commitment with every scout and
leader that is going rappellling or climbing and we also
stress that with going they have the responsabiltiy to to act
properly and if they dont I personally will sit them down and
let them watch because I have not lost a child YET and I want
to know who is going to be my first. Then nobody steps forward
to be the first because horseplay and safety DO NOT go
together whenI am on the tower or on the lake even adults have
been called down in front of the kids and trust me they dont
like it one bit. But I am not there to babysit adults or bad
kids. I have the safety of my kids and leaders to worry about.
sorry so long winded but SAFETY comes first and progam when
done properly goes right with safety.
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ASM Troop 41 Lexington KY

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 28 Jul 2004 06:16 am Post subject: re

Safety is always the top concern and everything I do is safe
and secure. I operate under Climb on Safely and Topping Out.
That is not the problem it is the scoutmasters that bring
these little guys. They are the problem. AN adding two liile
requirements stops that.
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cballman
Second Class

Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Nicholasville KY
Posted: 28 Jul 2004 10:05 pm Post subject: age

Yes Safety is the main concern but with so much at stake the
scoutmasters should understand that safety and mature scouts
should only try the merit badge and if they dont then that is
where we need to put our foot down and make some people mad.
but hey I told a scout leader after he told a group of boys
that they needed pink frilly dresses because they wouldnt try
rapelling that he needed to find him one in his size cause I
didnt see a harness on his butt. He shut up very quickly and I
was the talk of our event the rest of the event because of
this. Our event is called twelve hours of pain it started at
6:00pm and ended at 6:00am from sat night to sunday morning it
involved all different kinds of scout skills that needed to be
done by the patrol method. It was a great event.
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Charlie Ballman
ASM Troop 41 Lexington KY

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 12:28 pm Post subject:

I like the pink frilly dress comment. I had a leader getting
on a couple of boys in a class recently. he told them they
were climbing like girls. I jumped in at that point and said"
No if they were girls they would be at the top already and
back down Girls are better Climbers!" he shut right up.
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 01 Aug 2004 09:09 am Post subject:

Take a look at the Web Site. Nelson rocks is about a 2 Hour
drive from SW PA.

www.nelsonrocks.org

The via ferrata is a great way to experience climbing without
the equipment. ALthough I would recommend this a a family
trip.
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RWSmith
Counselor

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 01 Aug 2004 08:36 pm Post subject:

A'hmm. Hey, guys…

I don’t know of any age restrictions on ANY Merit Badges. IOW,
any Scout can take any Merit Badge at any time. And I have the
feeling that, from National's perspective, that's the way it's
supposed to be. If two qualified adults were teaching the
requirements for the ‘Climbing’ MB to any two, but just two
10-1/2 year-old Scouts at a time, would there be a problem?

Okay. So, any Scout can take any MB... Do I advise kids, even
my own son, to wait a year or two before taking Lifesaving,
for example. Sure. But, ultimately, this decision should
ALWAYS be up to the Scout (and his parents). And, although the
kid has the right to choose which requirements he will satisfy
to complete a MB, it is the MBC who is the SOLE AUTHORITY IN
ALL OTHER issues concerning a MB, including the number of kids
you feel you can safely handle at a time. If you want to limit
the number of 10-year olds to just two and the number of
17-year olds to 8, for “safety” reasons, I'd consider that to
be your perogative.

My son took Water Skiing MB at camp, last week. Certainly not
a "beginners" MB, if there is such a thing. (And, BTW, there's
not.) In fact, he didn’t know a thing about water skiing. He
got a partial; so what. Did he learn something; did he have
fun? Oh yeah… That’s my point. Point in fact, my son's MBC for
water skiing has been skiing since she was 3 YEARS OLD!

Can summer camps and parents set age limits on a MBs? Sure.
But, BSA does not. Not on -a- Scout seeking -a- badge. On a
class at summer camp? Yes. And that means SMs and MBCs should
follow the same guidance.

I don't know the "official" written position. So, I could be
wrong. But, that's my understanding. If I am wrong, please let
me know; so, I can get it right.

YIS,
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ADC, Apache District

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 01 Aug 2004 08:45 pm Post subject:

You are correct Bob but a couple pre resquisites and it raises
the age at least a year or two. Like Before Attempting this MB
the Scout will have First Aid MB and Current CPR
certification.
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hops_scout
Second Class

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: 09 Aug 2004 05:46 pm Post subject:

Personally, I think that there should be some kind of AGE
requirement. There is one for SeaBase, Philmont, etc so that
argument over age isnt maturity, etc doesnt work too well

Also, as the instructor, you could always to choose to not
volunteer for that kid. You've gotta remember that you're a
volunteer position in most cases

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 09:26 pm Post subject:

The age requirements for Philmont at least for the Treks are
due to the physical endurance and skills required. I don't
know many 11 or 12 year old scouts that have the skills
necessary to survive a High Adventure Trek.
Many young scouts are unprepared on a weekend 5 mile
hike...how are they going to survive an 87 mile trek?
If you attend a Training course at Philmont they have planned
activities for your family while you are attending the
course... but these are age appropriate activites.

I think as far as merit badges at summer camp they are using
age limits to make sure the older scouts get to participate in
some of the more adventurous activities due to the fact that
they have probably completed much of the stuff that the
younger scout hasn't and they have a reason to attend camp.
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[Safety]

Gentlemen:

I think you're all missing a very important point. Before a boy can attempt a merit badge he must get his merit badge card from his Scoutmaster. It is here and with the Scoutmaster that the decision should be made that the boy has what it takes to attempt the merit badge. No scoutmaster's signiture on the meritbadge card, no merit badge.

Simple

[Guneukitschik]

what you are saying is correct....however there are certain circumstances which having a minimum age is beneficial. Many scout camps impose an age limit to allow the older scouts a chance to participate in these activities... plus at the same time giving the younger scouts a reason to want to attend again next year.

I have seen portable climbing walls that have a 13 year old age requirement due to insurance reasons.

I also think that many 11-12 year old scouts probably aren't mature enough for the activity...which could be a safety issue? I am not saying that every 11-12 year old scout is too immature to handle it....like you said above...the scoutmaster should be intelligent enough to make that decision!

[RWSmith]

....It is here and with the Scoutmaster that the decision should be made that the boy has what it takes to attempt the merit badge. No scoutmaster's signiture on the meritbadge card, no merit badge.

Simple.

Every Scout has the right to work on any MB he so chooses. The SMs signature on the Blue Card, in advance, simply acknowledges to the MBC that the SM and the Scout have discussed the matter. The only possible reason a SM can refuse to sign the Blue Card is when there is something in the boy's medical file (or word from his parents) that would prevent him from taking the MB. Period.

Again, with emphasis... Except for documented medical reasons or parental restrictions, no SM can prevent a Scout from attempting a MB... any MB, any time. To do so would be defeating the very core purpose of the entire program! The SM may (and should) advise, counsel, whatever; but, NEVER, EVER refuse a boy the opportunity to pass (or fail) a MB.

Now that, my newfound friend, is the simple truth of the matter.

[BM_Crawford]

I agree with you 100% Scouting is about experiences and to challenge that is absured.

[Guneukitschik]

I agree with you on that...any scout is able to take any merit badge at any time....

However, I also understand why scout camps, etc. are instituting an age requirement.... it makes sense! but... there is no reason why a scout of any age couldn't call up a counselor on his own and complete the badge!

[BM_Crawford]

the only reason I see having age requirements at camps is for leagle reasons. That makes sense there to protect them incase something happens.

[Guneukitschik]

I think with Scout Camps...they are implementing age requirements to allow the older scouts to have access to the high adventure type activities and this makes the younger scouts want to come back next year to they can participate.

The only legal issue is most likely with a private company rents a piece of equipment (ie. portable climbing wall) this is probably an insurance issue! or if for example your troop goes whitewater rafting with a private rafting company and the company has it own policy that no one under age 13 be allowed for whatever reason.

[BM_Crawford]

Or if the camp is on state grounds then that MIGHT pose some leagle questions.

[Guneukitschik]

I don't think the state would be liable for any legal issues? Let's say you go hiking in the woods and a tree falls on you. You could not sue the state just because the tree fell on you? I don't think there are any requirements for the type of activities that scouts would participate in while on state owned land?
In addition.... All scouts are insured through the BSA...All scouts are insured while participating in approved activities. Check the Guide to Safe Scouting for a listing of these approved activities. The same goes for Cub Scouts and Venture Crews. Each group has their own list of approved activities. So if you are a Scout age 11-17 you can participate in any activity on the approved list and you would be insured by the BSA.
Consider the Climbing example... Climbing is a approved activity...and if you were Climbing the side of a mountain (of course following the Climb Safely program) a scout would be insured by the BSA....and if you were Climbing on a Rented Climbing wall (owned by a private company) you would be subject to their insurance requirements/guidelines to use the equipment which may require you to be of a specific age, etc. You would still be covered by the BSA insurance policy but you would also be covered by the private company's liability insurance as well....

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I agree that age, maturity and first aid experience are factors that should be established be before taking the climbing MB, as with quite a few other badges as well. This is a constant debate in our area and between adults. Our troop has routinely not allowed young/newer scouts to take certain badges; especially Eagle badges or ones where safety can be a more serious concern. Although we cannot and do not stop them from contacting another counselor outside of the troop, the counselors within our troop have refused a young scout on several occasions. We feel most some badges are just meant for older scouts and yes, this can be an incentive to the younger ones for privileges to the older scouts. Nothing wrong with goals and experiences to look forward to. This can be the benefits allowed to keep the older boys involved.

I would like to see nationals take a different approach on this subject in general.

[Mrw]

Our troop has twice been to Laurel Caverns in PA for the climbing merit badge. We have had first years scouts attempt and pass this badge - even a really tiny guy. We also have had older boys freeze and not be able to do the rappelling.

OUr summer camp, on the other hand, has an age requirement for the badge., This is primarily to keep the classes to a manageable size. The same is true with some of the boating badges.

The kids who were not pretty sure they wanted to climb worked on forestry, geology and basic camp skills.

If they are motivated, they can do it. For example, my younger son did at least five week long bike trips before he was old enough to cross over to scouts from Webelos and earn the badge. Yet we have much older boys in the troop who would never have enough perseverance to complete cycling.

[wagionvigil]

I am in charge of the Laurel Caverns Program. I am totally against First Year scouts taking Climbing. I believe that age rules ned to be in place for several MB. that is my opinion. One it gets the boys to wait a while to attempt them Plus it bring s them back to camp or ither places. I also would like to see it to manage the size of the classes. Although I have three drops I can use weather permitting I only have one climbing wall and at times staffis a problem. To operate everything it take 8 staff members.

[Lynda J]

Kevin did the climb wall in scouts the first time as a Bear. He did all three levels and rang the bell on each. He is a small wirie kid. At 11 he is 4'8 and weighs about 85lbs. But he loves the wall. He wants to do the climbing badge at summer camp this summer. I don't like age requirements. An 11 year old can be able to do some badges better than a 15 year old. It isn't age but maturity. Is some badges body strength is a factor. But I have a 7th grader that can bench press 350lbs and an 11th grader that has a hard time picking up one end of a table.
I would try to talk to a boy wanting to do a badge that I didn't really feel he was ready to do but would not stop him from trying.

[wagionvigil]

Climbing MB at our camp is for 13 and up COPE is for 14 and up. The climbing part is usually not the problem the Rappelling is the problem.

[wagionvigil]

the main problem with what I have to deal with is Scoutmasters that use Climbing as a team building excerise for their new Scouts. This is a totally inappropriate way of introducing a new scout to scouting. This year so far has not been too bad as we have "Troop Requirements" That the SM must teach them the Knots before coming and they must have completed First Class First Aid.

[hops_scout]

Linda, I cannot believe there is a 7th grader bench pressing 350 pounds. You realize how hard that is? If he truly can, I find it hard to believe that it is without the help of steroids or something.

And if he truly can do so without any artificial help, please do send him up here ASAP

We could use him for football

So I'm not totally offtopic:

I feel there should be the age limit of 13 years old in order to do climbing merit badge and COPE. I have earned my climbing merit badge and have completed a COPE course. This summer, I will be working on a rappel tower. I would have to say that climbing merit badge is what hooked me into doing both COPE and working at Jambo on the tower.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Linda, you make a few arguements against an age limit but again, don't you think most age requirements anywhere in life always have a few exceptions to the rule? It's just part of setting rules and there is always someone on the other side of it. A child growing up on farms running equipment and riding 4-wheelers could probably drive a car before most other teenagers too but this is the rule.
I still think some badges should have age limits.

[diamondbackAPL]

our summer camp information says about climbing "recommended for scouts 13 years and older. not recommended for new scouts"

that should be enough of a warning for scouts.

I don't think they should have an age limit. If what Lynda said is true, Then I see no reason why the 7th grader on steroids can't take climbing (other than the fact that drugs aren't allowed in scouts)