Archery MB.

[Who]

Good morning,
New here but not new to scouting. Two Eagle Scout sons and Wood Badge here.
I was looking at this post and I would like to share my thoughts, if I may.

I teach the archery MB and run the range at camp. There is a problem with this Mb.
In order to make the score you must have two things, size and strength.
Most of the scouts I see do not have these. For the close targets yes but the others no.
They may hit the target but the arrow will just bounce off for lack of energy.
Most of the scouts I have seen would not have passed my MB class without help. I watch them and see if they use the information that they have been given. I stress safety; I test them on what they know. I watch them and help them on the range.
I look at the Scout and the equipment we have and also what type of shooting conditions we have at the time. I use all of this to make adjustments on the score. It may not be to the letter but I feel this is fair
and equal for all of them.
The only thing I have a hard time with is telling a Scout that he can’t take the MB. I almost got in trouble a couple of years ago on this.
A young new Scout, first summer camp. Came to the range wanting to take the MB. I knew he could not pull the regular bows and that he had no chance to really do the Mb. I took him aside and ask him some questions and let him try to pull the bow. He could not. I suggested that he might take another Mb and come back and shoot during free time because I had a bow he would be able to shoot at close range.
I had my assistant take him back and help him find a different Mb to take.
Seemed simple enough. Wrong
That evening the Camp director, Ranger, the Scoutmaster and young scout came over to the range demanding to know why I would not let the scout to take the class. Race was talked about. I was shocked.
The Scoutmaster started by saying that all Scouts should be able to take the MB's they wanted and I had no right to refuse him from taking archery. I wanted to stop him and explain but I let him finish. The Director then started and just asks why. I decided that a demonstration was the first thing to do. I took them out to the range and gave the Scout a bow and arrow and placed him in front of a 10 yd target. He tried to pull the bow back and shoot but the arrow just fell about a yard from him. I then had him try the Cub Scout bow and he hit the target but did not stick. The Scoutmaster told me why could he not use this bow. I took them to the 30 yd target and let him shoot. It didn’t even come close.
I told them that I had no problem in letting him take the MB and teaching him all I could but there was no way he could pass the shooting part of it. I told them that was why I had told the Scout that he needed to take another Mb and to come back and shoot during free time.

The MB is made for someone that has been shooting for some time not for most Scouts that have never shot a bow before and only have 5 days to do it. The MB needs to adjust to this in some manner.
Thanks for letting me talk and I do plan on being around for a while Where is the coffiee pot?

[wagionvigil]

There again is a good reason for age requirements on some MB. I have been in support of this for Climbing and a couple others. I never thought about Archery though

[riverwalk]

anyway, good job Who. It looks like you approach this Badge with the proper spirit. I would have done this pretty much the same way. In most settings outside Scouts, CPR training used to be limited to a minimum age. The training is simple enough for most persons, but the mass required to create effective chest compressions was a valid requirement. So different examples are always there.

Therefore one way for this Scouter to interpret Requirements is not unlike rules in any organization, or even speed limits. The printed steps are required but a guideline for most situations. We can't "add to" but we can allow for special assistance required, or determine the requirements can't be met at this time.

[Rick Tyler]

I don't think there is anything wrong here (except that it sounds like the Scoutmaster in your example was pretty clueless about the MB program).

Some MBs cannot be earned by the average 11-year-old. Archery is one of them. Lifesaving, Cit World, Personal Management, Small Boat Sailing and Climbing are others that come to mind. That's OK. Other MBs, like Art, Woodcarving, First Aid, and Swimming are well within the grasp of the average young scout.

The MB program was designed to offer challenges to scouts of all ages. If they are all made "easy" enough for an 11-year-old, there wouldn't be any challenges left for 15-year-olds.

As an adult leader I would (and have) refused to give permission to a scout who was too young for a certain MB. That's why a Scoutmaster is supposed to sign the MB card before work on the MB begins.

[commish3]

There are some real probems here. I am concerned that a mb counselor would add to or detract from the merit badge badge requirements. I am concerned that there seems to be an attitude that just because a scout attends merit badge classes that he should accomodated in order to earn the badge.

There is no need to add artificial barriers such as age. Age does not guarantee size or strength any more that size and strength would guarantee skill or knowledge.

What is needed is for the scout to meet the BSA requirements. If he is not strong enough to draw the bow at this time so what? There are plenty of other requirements he can complete and he has until he is 18 years old to make his target scores and complete the badge.

Adjusting the required scores or making any other changes to the BSA requirements is a violation of BSA advancement policies and the practice needs to be ended.

Rick,
A unit leader has neither the authority nor the responsibility to deny a scout the opportunity to work on ANY advancement he chooses so long as he meets the prerequisites set by the BSA.

The first step in earning a merit badge is "The Scout chooses the merit badge". Nowhere in the Scout handbook or the Scoutmaster handbook does it say the SM must accept the scout's choice. The SM signature is to show that the SM has made sure that the scout has an approved and registered counselor and you have reviewed the MB process with him. It also shows that you are aware of the scouts activities. As a sm you need to know what a scout is working on so that you have an idea of his interests and growth.

[RWSmith]

Bro. Who, (or would that be Doctor?)

Welcome to the board.

Rank requirements, including MB requirements, may not be modified or adjusted in any way, not for any reason. Never. No more. No less. There’s no room for deviation here, and I would suggest that, from now on, you stick to the letter of the requirements. BTW, as we all know, once a MB has been signed off, it cannot be taken back; so, what’s done is done, and cannot be undone. So, whatever decisions were made in the past regarding, let’s say “curving” grades, is and should be forgotten. So, let’s do just that and move on. (I said that for all of us.)

Also, no SM (or MBC, or any other Scouter) has the right to deny a Scout the opportunity to attempt a MB. Any MB. Be it age, race, whatever. Period. The fact that he may be (even if obviously so) unable to complete the badge is not relevant. Only the Scout's parents can deny their son the opportunity to attempt any MB. So, the way I read your story, you did "the right thing" concerning the Scout who couldn't draw a bow. In fact, I appreciate the way you handled the entire situation... You seem to address each Scout’s ability on a case-by-case basis. You showed a Scout why he could not yet physically pass the badge, and encouraged him to (give up the slot to someone who could draw the bow and) come down during free time where he certainly would have gotten more personalized training than what could have been afforded during a MB session. Again, based on the way I read it, you didn't refuse the Scout the opportunity, you simply guided him into making a better decision, but still his own decision... nothing wrong with that. (I'm also making the assumption that) the Program Director (PD) failed to shield you from the irate SM by taking the complaints and then telling the SM that he'd investigate and get back to him. The PD should have seen you privately, to get your side of the story, w/o the surprise attack from the irate SM. After that, he could have gotten you and the SM together where you could both have explained your positions--but the PD would have been in a much better position to direct the conversation and prevent you from getting hammered by the SM. Besides, anybody, even a SM, who throws the race card without first obtaining a few simple facts is the racist, not you. Pure and simple. I personally consider racism highly offensive; it is a condition born of ignorance and fear... And I see no difference between the application -or- ludicrous (as in false) claim thereof.

Anyhow, I digress. Oh, BTW... I could see one possible exception... safety. And though I'd disagree with you on the point, if I were in the PD’s shoes, I could and would accept a MBCs decision to prevent a kid from getting on the line because he's not yet physically capable of safely handling any of the bows at your disposal. Any MBC has the right to prevent a Scout from putting himself in danger. However, with that being said, the Scout could have insisted on attempting the remaining components of the MB. Even so, like I said before, I think you did right by guiding the kid into the ‘free shoot’ sessions for the reasons noted above.

[hacimsaalk]

same type of thing happened this yr at camp. small 1st yr scouts wanted to do shotgun shooting, counsler turned them away b/c they were to small to handle the guns that were at camp SAFELY. he didnt doubt that they could actually shoot the skeet and pass that part, it was that they couldnt do it SAFELY with the equipment that he had available.

[Rick Tyler]

A rare thread... I don't really disagree with much of anything.

To expand on part of my earlier post, I have and continue to counsel boys on appropriate MB choices for their particular interests and maturity levels. I have issued Cit World blue cards to 11-year-olds knowing that they weren't really going to understand it for a couple of years. That's OK. Have I ever told a scout (not at camp) that a certain MB is a prohibited choice? No, I haven't, although I have had to tell scouts that I've had a problem finding a counselor (we had a 17-yo scout who decided to focus on earning "obscure" MBs for a while -- finding counselors in some cases required calling other councils in the state).

When issuing blue cards at summer camp, I've reviewed each scout's proposed program before approving it. Every year 1 or 2 new scouts will try to sign up for an impossible program that I know will result in an unhappy camper. Every time this has happened (so far) the scout and I have worked out a more appropriate program that worked for them. Did I refuse to sign a blue card? No, not explicitly. If they hadn't worked with me, I might have. I know I've signed blue cards for something like Archery, while strongly encouraging the young scout to take other easier MBs to ensure that something is finished at camp. I'm older, more mature, and more experienced than the scouts. Sometimes, just like their parents, I know what's better for them than they do.

For what it's worth, by the time a scout is attending his third summer camp, he's pretty much on his own. If I only see him at mealtimes, colors, and evening retreat that's fine by me.

I don't like MB fairs. Our troop is going to have its own "MB Weekend" campout this year in part because we want to make sure the counselors are really making the scouts fulfill the requirements. I don't think any reading of the BSA rules and regs forces a Scoutmaster to sign a blue card for a MB class or workshop that the Scoutmaster is not confident with. According to the procedures, the Scoutmaster picks the counselor for the scout. No guidance is given as to how the Scoutmaster should make this choice, but I sure believe that referring the scout to a counselor that will take the time to do a good, complete job ought to be one of them.

[commish3]

I am not aware of any instructions that require the SM to PICK the counselor, only to see that the counselor has been approved. That means the counselor is registered with the BSA as a mb counselor.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

This thread ties into the "Age for MB Poll" thread nicely and I have one example with this badge where an age requirement would've been nice.

When my oldest son went to camp his first year at age 11, he decided to take archery and the adult in charge of advancement at the time never made a comment about his choice. He didn't earn the badge, did everything except make his targets. I tried each year to get him to try and finish the badge or at least make the attemp on free time. He refused saying he hated archery and couldn't do it. His last year at camp, at 17 and not really needed any more badges, he decided to take the class with a large group of other kids in the troop and what do you know, but he completed the badge. He was so thrilled! He told me that he wished someone had stopped him from taking it when he was younger and that I (now the advancement person) shouldn't let any new scouts take the badge because if he didn't take it again later, he would've lost the opportunity to learn this new skill. He was so upset that taking it at too young of an age gave him an unfair veiw. So taking his cue, I've now discouraged new scouts from taking this badge. If they really want to take it anyway, I'll speak to their parent to explain this and then it's up to them.

So even if it sounds like a few exceptional scouts might be held back with an age limit, I think more scouts would be better off not getting discouraged trying to accomplish a task that they're not ready for.

[riverwalk]

That was partly where my arrow was coming from too. We've all done this in life, or knew youth that didn't complete or compete well on something. Maybe they quit trying because they felt intimidated by the situation.....maybe some peers teased them.....whatever. I even know adults that won't go back and attempt something again. I wish I had tried some things over again as a Scout; I might have accomplished more in rank and badges.

[Rick Tyler]

I am not aware of any instructions that require the SM to PICK the counselor, only to see that the counselor has been approved. That means the counselor is registered with the BSA as a mb counselor.

Boy Scout Handbook, 11th Edition, page 187:

"Obtain from your Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application and the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge."

For what it's worth, this is the same instruction (worded slightly differently) as given in my Seventh Edition handbook from when I was a Scout.

What I've never seen is any evidence that the Scout has anything to say about who his counselor is. In the real world, of course, the Scout has already approached Mr(s). Counselor and arranged a relationship before the SM signs the blue card.

[cballman]

also another note the summer camp that we attend has set down requirements for different MBs like a minimum weight,rank req, and they are their for the safety of not only the camp staff but the kids. these are all in the summer camp guide and the only exceptions are if a child is second class and the camp states first classs or above the the scoutmaster has to go to bat for the kid. now another example last year at camp we (as in our troop) had three boys that wanted to take the lifesaving MB. while not a hard one but not an easy one. the boys were second year scouts thought they were strong enough. but since the waterfront staff was a little short I helped with this merit badge. and not only did I have top pull one of MY scouts out of the water i had to also help about three or four more out of trouble. now I have a good reason to deny the abilities of any younger scouts the reason not to put themselves in danger and the MBC. by no means do I want to see a child fail but when the class starts out at 15-20 boys and ends up with 6-10 then yes I have a problem because if the boys that dropped out were just not ready then how many slots did they take from some other scouts that were?
also I had to take a young scout back to the rifle range and have a long chat with the range director and the scout because of a safety rule that wasent followed. the instructor put the child off the range until I came back and cleared up the matter. the child also had to do the hardest thing and ask me to go with him and WHY. we had a long talk and yes he cried and said he was sorry. but he was still only a second year scout so that age he didnt fully understand the problem. but after we got that settled then he not only was let back on the range but he also outshot all the other boys in CAMP that week. so we as leaders need to understand the talents and strenghs of our own kids and also make them and there parents aware why we think a certain MB is ok or not. if there is a problem then that will normally be taken to the Scoutmaster and most of the time he will back us up. so that also makes for a strong troop since the last three years we have had over 40 boys at camp in each year. so yes I think that if we tell a scout that he does not need to take a certain MB then he and his parents should understand why.

PS yes I am a BSA Lifeguard and a ASM.

[commish3]

Rick
If a troop is in a small remote council where there is only one counselor fine. But in larger councils there are multiple meritbadges counselors.

Why would a SM not give the scout information on who is available? The Scout may hear a name of a person he would like to meet, a teacher he admires, a neighbor that would be convenient.

What if his parent is a registered counselor for that badge are you saying that unless you pick that parent as the counselor the scout cannot use them? Thats a violation of the advancement policies Rick.

If possible attend the advancement training conference at Philmont Training Center, or speak with someone who has. Among other things they discuss the myths of advancement. The "authority" of the Scoutmaster is one of those myths. Too many adult leaders use an imagined authority to "control" advancement. Usually under the banner of "protecting" the quality of the advancement. That is not the role or purpose of the adult leader. It is merely an ego trip, and it is a trap we need to be conscious of if we are going to be good leaders. We are there to serve the scout not to control them.

We need to be creating positive opportunites for learning and advancement, not barriers and hurdles.

[mommatoodle]

Our troop has a list of who is qualified for which badges. Since many of our scouts come from all over the area, the SM lets the boys find a councelor on the list. Some live on the other end of the county and for some kids to get there would be impossible. It isn't like all of the boys come from the same town and the councelors are all from the same town.

The SM might suggest a councelor but doesn't tell anyone that they can't work on a badge because they didn't choose the councelor the SM wanted.

[Lynda J]

This isn't about age, it is about upper body strength. I know of an 11 year old that lifts weights and would have no problem with a bow. I also know a 16 year old that can't pick up an ice chest and carry it 10 feet. He has no upper body strength. It should be about ability.

Much like the drive of making people over a certain age either take a driving test every time they renew their license. Age isn't the factor here. Ability is. Have a customer that is about 40 and believe me if I saw him coming down the street I would pull off into a parking lot just to get out of his way. I also have a customer that is 80+ that I would crawl in a car any day and drive anywhere. Ability.

[Lynda J]

When our boys ask the SM for a blue card they must tell him the name of the counselor. We have a list of the counselors from our own troop and from our district. Each boy is given a copy of these lists. I personally recommend that they try to contact counselors who are not with the troop. But at no time has out SM selected the counselor.

[diamondbackAPL]

the camp we go to gives out information abot the MBs so the scouts can know of any prerequisites. the information about archery says that proficiency and skill is required. maybe if your camp lets scouts know that when they're picking their badges nobody would sign up that wasn't qualified

[wagionvigil]

Our camp does it also BUT alot of SM's never get this information to the Scouts. I always have copied that stuff and passed it out to the scouts when we were planning our week.

[Chief J]

Our camp puts out the prerequisites in the Leader's handbook as well as the schedule.

It may be overly motherly on my part, but I tailor a summer camp schedule for each Scout attending Summer Camp with what is available to them in each time slot. ( I delete the badges they have already earned and activities they are not old enough for). I then give the availability schedule and list of prerequisites to each scout well in advance of summer camp and have them review them and decide on what they want to accomplish while they are there. We then meet again before leaving for summer camp and review their schedule and prerequisites. I also sit down on Sunday evening at Summer Camp and firm everything up. If the Scout has not completed the prerequisites by then, we look at alternatives for them. I also encourage the Scouts if they are taking Archery or Rifle-Shooting to plan on spending time at the ranges during the open shoots. If they are not committed, we look at alternatives.

Chief J