Rifle rules, sights?

[DonDTroop204]

At a camp I went to they allowed a scout who was having trouble to use a rifle with a telescopic sight. There is nothing in the Rifle merit badge book that specifies the type of sight that is to be used.

Our local Rifle counselor is adamant that telescopic sights can not be used, even for a scout that needs glasses.

What is the concensus? Has this been considered and ruled on?

[hacimsaalk]

when i took it down at scout camp, we used peep sights. in the book however, it lists many types of sights. it doesnt say that you have to use one specific type. as long as they shoot the required distance and get the required groups, i dont think it matters

[RWSmith]

Don,

Telescopic sights are accessories and, although not addressed in the requirements, as such, the MBC may certainly add such "bonus material, aids or tools" to the program, as long as he/she does not modify the meeting of the requirements... So, a scope for practice? Yes. Training? Yes. Building confidence? Yes. To meet the accuracy requirements? No.

[DonDTroop204]

How does this square with the requirement to accomodate disabilities? In the case I cited, the scout was having difficulty because of the incompatibility of his eyeglasses. How can we say you must use a peep sight when the requirements don't say what kind of sight must be used?

I am frustrated by people saying that the rules must be followed. But the rules they are following are not actually written down.

I know boys have met the requirements for years with peep sights and will continue to do so. But when we have a hard working kid who fails because he has trouble and he can pass with a different sight, why not allow it?

Is this sort of issue solely up to the MBC's discretion?

[hacimsaalk]

How does this square with the requirement to accomodate disabilities? In the case I cited, the scout was having difficulty because of the incompatibility of his eyeglasses. How can we say you must use a peep sight when the requirements don't say what kind of sight must be used?

I am frustrated by people saying that the rules must be followed. But the rules they are following are not actually written down.

I know boys have met the requirements for years with peep sights and will continue to do so. But when we have a hard working kid who fails because he has trouble and he can pass with a different sight, why not allow it?

Is this sort of issue solely up to the MBC's discretion?

i would say it is up to the MB counsler, after all, he is the "head" of that merit badge. personally i see nothing wrong with using a scope fo the shooting part of it

according to the meritbadge.com MB requirements for it

"Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. Using these targets, explain how to adjust sights to zero. "

it doesnt say any where that you cant use a scope. if i were the MB counsler, i would let him use the scope. it says you arent allowed to change the MB requiremenats, but in this case, it isnt changing the requirements.

[wagionvigil]

If a scout is visually handicapped this would be a great thing. BUT I see both sides of the picture if the scout is not handicapped. We have discussed handicapped scouts before in the forums and we are all in agreement that we need to help those scouts. ALthough alot of them are only handicapped by adults that will not allow them to grow!
Climbing MB I have done a one armed scout,a scout with no real hands and a blind scout. The last one was a challenge BUT he actually did a better job climbing using touch and voice direction help from me .

[hops_scout]

I've climbed blindfolded before. Last year during COPE, we had races:)

[JazerNorth]

Check out this link => http://meritbadge.com/info/cnsling.htm <=

It is important that the Scout does not do more nor less than what is required. If it doesn't say what kind of sight, then it doesn't matter. The MOST important part of passing off the merit badge is that the scout is learning new experiences and follows all of the requirements.

Any Counselor who differs from the requirements is essentially saying that he/she knows more than the Boy Scouts of America.

[RWSmith]

If it doesn't say what kind of sight, then it doesn't matter.

Check out this link => http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/123.htm <=

The MOST important part of attempting any merit badge is that the Scout is learning new experiences, regardless of the requirements he meets, or fails to meet. When it comes to the Scout's meeting requirement 'X', the MBC may not require more, or less, of the Scout, than that which is stated. This 'standardizes' the MB requirement. However, with that being said, MBCs are not only allowed, but encouraged, to go above and beyond the literal requirements when it comes to the Scout's learning experience... that's the very reason MBCs must have some type of personal knowledge or experience regarding the subject matter... so he/she can impart that to the Scout. This 'personalizes' the Scout's MB experience.

In the case of Riflery, it does say what kind of sight, and it does matter. The fact the optical sights were omitted from the requirements does not mean they should not be used for learning, practice, etc.; it only means they can NOT be used to meet the requirements!

[JazerNorth]

I don't understand how you can come to that determination.

See http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/123.htm

Yes the MBC counselor is to help the boy have a great experience in getting the merit badge, that has never been disagreed on. Show me where it specifically tells you what sights must be used. It doesn't even say to use open sights. So using the logic stated earlier in these postings, the scout cannot use open sights either. He must just point the rifle. Using the same logic, the scout cannot use bolt action rifles, since it isn't listed in the requirements. Using the same logic, the scout cannot use semi-automatic rifles since they are not listed in the book.

[JazerNorth]

The Rifle Merit Badge follows the NRA pretty closely on it's requirements. See http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... _rifle.asp for the NRA's rules and regulations. You'll see that all sights are acceptable.

[RWSmith]

In using the word optical in my last post, I was referring back to, and meant synonymously, telescopic, which is the word I used in my first post in this thread. Although I believe that was understood, within the context of this thread, in any case, I apologize for the misunderstanding. With that being said, let me further clarify...

The sights referenced in the requirements, as a whole, from beginning to end, are inherently part of the basic, non-enhanced, non-accessorized rifle--including basic sights. And quite frankly, concerning the way the actual requirements for this MB are written, nothing the NRA says is relevant, except for the use of certain NRA targets, as referenced therein. In fact, the way these particular requirements are written, it doesn’t matter what the "sights" are actually called... open, peep, metallic, electronic, optical, telescopic, whatever. What is relevant though, is the ability to adjust the sights, and what steps must be taken in the event the sights used are fixed, instead.

Look, I'm a purist when it comes to MB requirements. What it is, is what it is. Nothing more; nothing less. And whatever sights are used, they cannot artificially enhance the sight picture because, in doing so, you severely alter the other two parts of the accuracy equation. (There's more to it than getting a grouping the size of a quarter, or hitting a soda can.) There are also the distance-to-target and size-of-target factors that are directly linked to the accuracy--the grouping is just the end-result. A telescopic sight would effectively counter, if not completely eliminate, the other two factors.

Play with all the accessories and training aids you want; but, the BSA Rifle Shooting MB does not allow for telescopic sights, laser sights, or any other sight-picture enhancing (or magnifying) devices; not for the purpose of meeting the requirements, simply because there is no option available to the Scout to meet the requirement, when the accuracy equation is modified by such means. This is common sense; and, right or wrong, fair or not, that's my interpretation... And no, I'm not National; in fact, I'm just like you, a guy with an opinion; I'm simply pointing out what I thought was obvious.

Edit: BTW, Don, I hope this has helped.

[RWSmith]

Nobody has complained, yet... but I think I was a just bit over-bearing in my last post... sorry. In fact, I will reiterate... I am not aware of any national policies or clarifications contrary to my opinion. I could be wrong; but, I don't think so... I have a couple of friends who are long-time NRA/BSA certified range dudes.. I'll ask them. If I hear something, I'll report it back here.

[ThunderingWind]

I ahve no personal trouble with a youth using a scope or other aiming device that is more than "iron sights" as long as there is a disability. The definition of disability....is another discussion as there are rules already in place for making the determination (generally speaking).

My trouble lies with the seeming "required" use of heavy safety goggles over quality glasses (put scratches on my Scouts new lenses at camp two weeks ago, Mom not happy) causing a poor sight picture. The large hearing protection headsets also did not allow a good fit to the rifle.

Maybe the goggles and large hearing headsets were a camp, council thing. But it did hinder my Scouts this year.

[jeffrey]

Quote: And whatever sights are used, they cannot artificially enhance the sight picture because, in doing so, you severely alter the other two parts of the accuracy equation. (There's more to it than getting a grouping the size of a quarter, or hitting a soda can.) There are also the distance-to-target and size-of-target factors that are directly linked to the accuracy--the grouping is just the end-result. A telescopic sight would effectively counter, if not completely eliminate, the other two factors.

What if I allow a scout to use a red dot scope? It does not enhance the sight picture because there is no magnification. Being that it sits a little higher, large earmuffs would not be a hindrance.
I've had to tape the safety glasses to faces, and cover the non dominate eye just so they could shoot.

[FredPhilibert]

No Joke. We had a blind Scout earn Rife Shooting Merit badge. A guy with a spotting scope sat next to him, called the shots, and he adjusted to compensate.

I had been moving aside all week when he came by, sweeping the ground in front of him with the red tipped white cane. How he never broke an ankle on the two billion rocks we crawl over I'll never know. So I mechanically moved aside as he came through that afternoon, and realized he was heading up the stairs at the RIFLE RANGE! The look of shock on my face must've spoken volumes, as the guy I was with brought his finger to his lips, signaling me to keep quiet.

Me? I'd let him use the 'scope. As far as I'm concerned, it's a sight. I would just choose one with minimal magnification (1x would be great, but almost impossible to find for .22 mounts). Does it give him an edge? Yeah. But first I'd have him try with every type of non-optical sight I could find... and try to build his confidence any way I could.

[mjones100]

I understand this thread is four years old - however I do have some input since we just returned from an organized BSA Scout Camp. At Camp Loll in Wyoming - the merit badge class for the Rifle Merit Badge was conducted as follows:

1. The boys had to fire 5 rounds into a TQ1/1 target. The target was collected if all five rounds could be covered with a quarter. They needed to have 5 of these to advance to the next phase. The rifle used for this portion was a CZ513 Basic. The exact location of the group on the target was not a factor.

2. For the "next phase" the boy was handed a CZ452 SMTR WITH a telescopic sight - and with that rifle he shot the TQ1/5 target - and if each of the five targets had a 3 shot group that could be covered with a quarter - the shooting phase was then over. The exact location of the group was not a factor - as the boys were not allowed to adjust the scope.

As an aside, ANYONE that shot a 5 shot group using the iron sighted CZ513 that could be covered with a dime, was inducted into the "dime club" and given a necklace at the conclusion of Scout Camp. The necklace consisted of heavy waxed thick black thread and 2 spent .22 shells (that each had a drilled hole) on both sides of a dime (that had a hole drilled through it). It gave some of the boys and most of the adult men something to "shoot for" and was a neat little challenge.


By the way - "Seton" was the name of our campsite at Camp Loll. Camp Loll is located 2 miles from Yellowstone National Forrest and is in the midst of absolutely breathtaking scenery.

Hope this adds to the discussion as I am now a MBC for Rifle Shooting, so I have an interest in the debate on whether or not telescopic sights should be used in the qualification for the merit badge. It falls upon my shoulders to assist the young men that were not able to finish this merit badge at Scout Camp. Since they saw those that passed use a telescopic sight at Scout Camp - I am at a loss as to how to proceed with those that didn't make it at Scout Camp - but still want to finish the merit badge. Do I follow the exact procedure that the boys and myself observed? Or do I deviate from what we all saw at Scout Camp?

What are your thoughts?

[kwildman]

you follow the requirements as they are written... no more or no less. The merit badge requirements do not specify only using iron sights so a scope should be permitted. Personally, i recommend only using iron sights as the sight picture is much more consistent for the shooters. Sight picture on a scope varies more by the persons vision, the size of their head, how they hold a rifle, etc.

The one requirement that i would like to see BSA add is that MBCs for rifle and shotgun be current NRA instructors.

[razor_strop]

If the telescopic sight had an adjustable crosshair (or whatever type reticle it used), then the camp really should have followed the scoring requirement of 2l and a) allowed the Scouts to adjust the sight, and b) required the Scouts to achieve a 7 or better with each qualifying shot. Yes, this may have been supervisor-intensive, but that's part of the responsibility counseling a merit badge--doing it correctly, not creating shortcuts. If the reticle wasn't adjustable short of manipulating the rings or base, then that's a different story.

[smtroop168]

The one requirement that i would like to see BSA add is that MBCs for rifle and shotgun be current NRA instructors.

Coming from a new book soon to hit your shelves, here you go:

Rifle Shooting. Instruction involving any handling of firearms must be supervised by a certified
BSA National Camping School (NCS) Shooting Sports Director, or National Rifle Association (NRA) Rifle Shooting Instructor or Coach. That involving muzzleloaders must be supervised by an NCS Shooting Sports Director or NRA/National Muzzleloader Rifle Association (NMLRA) certified muzzleloader firearms instructor. Shooting must be supervised by an NRA-certified Range Safety Officer (RSO). If instruction and shooting are to occur at the same time, both the RSO and qualified instructor must be present. They may not be the same person. Note that commercial shooting ranges may provide RSOs.

Shotgun Shooting. Instruction involving any handling of firearms must be supervised by a certified NCS Shooting Sports Director or NRA Shotgun Instructor or Coach. That involving muzzle-loading shotguns must be supervised by an NCS Shooting Sports Director or NRA/NMLRA certified muzzle-loading shotgun instructor. Shooting must be supervised by an NRA-certified Range Safety Officer (RSO). If instruction and shooting are to occur at the same time, both the RSO and qualified instructor must be present. They may not be the same person. Note that commercial shooting ranges may provide RSOs.