Sports MB

[Weber1]

I’m new to this forum and having pondered this question myself I was immediately interested in this thread. Here’s my take: I agree with the assessment that the response from National was a “blow off”. Here’s why: While you’re reading the lines in the guide to safe scouting that prohibits karate, have a look around and you’ll notice that it also states that “Hunting is not an authorized Cub Scout or Boy Scout activity...” Yet, they are “field testing” a hunting merit badge.

Watch for the guide to be updated as soon as they approve the badge. proving that national could change it for karate as well – If they were motivated to!

I’m sure the guys that originally set up the rules in the guide had some very noble thoughts in mind. So what could motivate national to change the guide? It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find out that national organizations that promote hunting and firearms might be big supporters of BSA. And that “support” would get them the ear of National and they would be able to convince them of the positive virtues of the sport.

The moral of the story: Follow the money. If you want to get Karate or Tae-Kwon-Do approved as a sport, convince one of their big national organizations to donate a pile of cash to BSA and watch the wheels turn!

[ASM-142]

The requirements for Sports Merit Badge include:

Take part for one full season as a member of an organized team in ONE of the following sports: baseball, basketball, bowling, cross-country, diving, fencing, field hockey, football, golf, gymnastics, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, skating (ice or roller), soccer, softball, swimming, team handball, tennis, track and field, volleyball, water polo, or wrestling (or any other recognized team sport approved in advance by your counselor, except boxing and karate).

However, the G2SS excludes football

Varsity football teams and interscholastic or club football competition and activities are unauthorized activities.

Do not think that because something is required in a MB that G2SS will be changed.

[PaulSWolf]

While you’re reading the lines in the guide to safe scouting that prohibits karate, have a look around and you’ll notice that it also states that “Hunting is not an authorized Cub Scout or Boy Scout activity...” Yet, they are “field testing” a hunting merit badge.

Watch for the guide to be updated as soon as they approve the badge.

The field test of the proposed Hunting merit badge does NOT include actual hunting with weapons of any kind. The "Hunting" would be with CAMERAS, and thus would not be in conflict with the G2SS ban on hunting by Boy Scouts.

[commish3]

ASM142
The reason why football is allowed as an organized team sport for the merit badge but not as a scout activity in the troop is easy to understand.

The organized team is going to have the player wear the required safety gear prior to playing the contact sport. Are you aware of any troop that is going to provide all the members with the helmets, shoulder pads, and body pads needed to play the game, or are they just going to grab a football and head to the nearest open space?

For that reason the organized sport is approved for the merit badge, the activity lacking the proper precautions is too injury prone for an approved troop activity, so it is prohibited in the G2SS.

[ASM-142]

The organized team is going to have the player wear the required safety gear prior to playing the contact sport.

Then why is varisity football (high school) not allowed. They all all equipment and training.

[commish3]

The BSA is not refering to varsity football, but to Varsity football. That is to say you cannot use football as an Varsity Scout Team event.

The same reason they disallow club teams. They want to make sure that some unit does not try to sneak through a loophole by registering the scout unit as a club team. By only allowing school sponsored sports they make sure it is not a scouts only or scout sponsored team.

[ASM-142]

The BSA is not refering to varsity football, but to Varsity football. That is to say you cannot use football as an Varsity Scout Team event.

The same reason they disallow club teams. They want to make sure that some unit does not try to sneak through a loophole by registering the scout unit as a club team. By only allowing school sponsored sports they make sure it is not a scouts only or scout sponsored team.

OK that makes sense. Then what do they mean by interscholastic ?

[commish3]

Interscholastic: used of competition or cooperation between secondary schools.

I guess the Scouts at one school cannot challenge the scouts at another school to a game of football.

[freebyrd1964a]

Yes everyone, I was trying to be politically correct, but I did feel and still feel blown off . But I didn't really expect anything else with the first letter. Of course like I stated before the blow off got the old stuborn streak going and I will get answers or they will just have to put up with letters and phone calls quite often from the old Ssgt (and a few friends of mine).

Now Commish (I don't mean to put you personally on the spot but you brought it up) you brought up another point with the safety equipment. My friend sport karate has all sorts of safety equipment. Headgear, mouthpieces, gloves, feet (kinda like gloves for the foot), cups, chest protectors and so on. I personally even use shin guards. Weapon training is sometimes started with foam versions of the weapon to protect one from injuries. Judo on the other hand (the gentle art and the approved art) one wears NO protective gear (I do wear my cup and knee brace but am not required to).

We had an Judo open at my home dojo this Sunday. Before the 2 1/2 hours workout was over, we had 1 dislocated shoulder, 1 bruised elbow, 1 bruised rib, my neck was extremly tight (still is) and someone ended up bleeding slightly (never did figure it out but a few of our uniforms had small blood slaterings on them).

I have a feeling that the BSA bias is due to events such as what's now know as No Holds Barred fighting (NHB), Ultimate Fighting, fight club, Tough Man competitions. This is a type of fight competition where the rules are lets say relaxed. Little or no safety equipment and the object is to beat your opponent. This is a very blood thirsty type of match. This is by no means what I propose to allow the boys to compete. I wouldn't get into such a ring myself (at my age) let alone allow a minor under my care get into.

[West]

It's also funny the Tae Kuon Do is allowed, When Karate is not. When taught right they are both self defense. Same principal as teaching a kid to use a gun really, the goal isn't for him to go out and hurt people with it. If you do the training right a kid is less likely to use his 'weapons' (in this case hands and feet) to attack another person then without the training.

[freebyrd1964a]

Actually West if you look at the Guide to Safe Scouting, TKD is not allowed either. It seems that no contact martial art is allowed.

You are right however. Both TKD and Karate as most martial arts are normally taught as self defense or even as sports. Most repetable instructors and schools do not teach it for offensive purposes.

[freebyrd1964a]

Well I seem to be having the opposite effect than what I intended I just recieved a letter back in reply to my second letter. It seems that since I compared Sport Karate with fencing, now they may re-evaluate fencing. Because it may be a violation of the Guid to Safe Scouting.

Of course there is still no explaination as to why.

[Weber1]

Interesting, the hunting merit badge requires hunting with a camara. I'm not a hunter, but I suspect I'd be disappointed if I were. I liken it to fishing without requirement 10. (...clean and cook a fish...)

As far as the football comparisons and contradictions that have been debated, I did notice that rugby is allowed as a team sport, while it does not have it's own special paragraph prohibiting intersholastic competition like football does. Last I heard, rugby was played with less equipment than football and even rougher. Probably not many high school rugby teams.

But I'm not trying to argue those issues. The point is that scouting has a lot of requirements set forth by a lot of different committees for a host of different purposes and added on to over a long time. Even with he best of intentions, conflicts are going to creep in. So, what's the best course of action? I know, it's a lot less time consuming trying to defend the existing rules. But it is counterproductive to come up with akward explanations that expose double standards and that people can poke holes in. Why not reexamine everything, acknowledge the conflicts, and reconcile them? Times have changed and so have perceptions.

[freebyrd1964a]

All that I wanted initially was to get some sort of explaination. And maybe if the powers that be would be so kind to issue my son a waiver to allow him to combine the sport that he enjoys with boy scouting. I wasn't and am still not asking for a complete revision of the rules (even though I strongly disagree with this particular rule and will probably never see it any other way other than being a prejudice of the Martial Arts).

The thing is, I don't care for incomplete answeres and I really dislike being blown off. I've already recuited several friends from my martial arts family to write to national. I'm continuing to write myself. If I have to I'll write them from the sands of Iraq (may be deployed soon) but I want an answer!

[Weber1]

Could you post the address and person to whom you and the others are writing? My son has an interest in this as well and I'd like to write them as well. Thanks.

[freebyrd1964a]

The Director of Advancement
Boy Scouts of America
PO Box 152079
Irving, TX 75015-2079

[Advancement]

PaulSWolf -

Since BSA states that a Scout can begin working on a requirement at any time, can a Scout count playng football for a Pop Warner team prior towards the Sports MB even if he played while he was a Cub Scout? I know that different counselor's have different opinions on it and would like the expert's opinion. I've seen some counselor's accept it and some say they had to be a Boy Scout when they played the sport. I also had a counselor sign off when the badge was taken at camp for two seasons of baseball and no other sport. - Thanks

[evmori]

PaulSWolf -

Since BSA states that a Scout can begin working on a requirement at any time, can a Scout count playng football for a Pop Warner team prior towards the Sports MB even if he played while he was a Cub Scout? I know that different counselor's have different opinions on it and would like the expert's opinion. I've seen some counselor's accept it and some say they had to be a Boy Scout when they played the sport. I also had a counselor sign off when the badge was taken at camp for two seasons of baseball and no other sport. - Thanks

It's up to the counselor.

[FrankJ]

It might be up to the counselor because it is all ultimately up time counselor. But you should only count achievements done while registered as a Boy Scout. Not stuff done a cub or non scout.

--Paul's coin excepted. Common sense is a good thing.


Edited by me for clarity

[evmori]

It might be up to the counselor because it is all ultimately up time counselor. But you should not count achievements while registered as a Boy Scout. Not stuff done a cub or non scout.

I agree 100%.