Where should an adult smoke?

[Fibonacci]

Here is what I read:

All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

We have only one adult smoker in our troop, and he cannot last an entire day without smoking. When the troop is on a day hike or an overnight hike, where can he smoke? He is trying to be respectful of Scouting policy and to be very unobtrusive in his habit. On a long day hike, should this adult backtrack down the trail 100 yards, light up, and enjoy his cigarette while the troop drinks water & eats a snack? On an overnight hike does he let the trip leader know that he is going in to the woods for a few minutes?

Thanks for your feedback.

[FrankJ]

At Philmont, they have designated smoking areas, even in the back country so BSA obviously makes allowances for this. I did not pay much attention to where since this since it is not one of my problems.

A couple of things. Stepping away from the group, even an adult should let the leader know what & why & probably should take a buddy. It is well known that bears love a good cigar which is definitely a smellable.

Be aware of the fire conditions. Some states are under a total fire ban that includes outdoor smoking.

[mhjacobson]

Yes Philmount has smoking -- last year they allowed you to go to your car, sit in it, and smoke with the windows closed due to the fire risk. I am glad that I do not smoke, given those conditions.

The prior poster is correct, for a person to go 100 yards away from the group to smoke alone is a problem. However there is more of a problem -- one of the reasons BSA is against adults smoking around the Scouts is that fact that scouts seeing one of their leaders smoking (or knowing that he is smoking) provides the wrong image -- that smoking is OK. Since everyone will know why he is leaving the group (with his buddy) it does not accomplish one of the goals of leaders not smoking around scouts.

[Mrw]

You can argue that the image of so many adults huddling outside in all sorts of weather for their cigarette fix gives more of the image of smoking as somewhat pathetic rather than cool.

Here in Ohio, we have a pretty comprehensive indoor smoking prohibition and so the sight of smokers needing to leave an activity for a cigarette is quite common. Yes, the boys know why he is leaving, but it doesn't send the "cool" message anymore.

[kwildman]

Out of sight out of mind... Most kids wont know what is going on if an adult periodically slips away. Just be discrete.

[mhjacobson]

"Most kids won't know?" Must be a cub scout leader who posted this - when kids hit about 12 years of age they know everything that the significant adults around them are doing, and in some cases why!

The more that we sell the kids short, the less that we can help them.

[milominderbinder2]

Some camps allow smoking in your own car in the parking lot. But you should never sneak off to do it.

It is Murphy's Law that those few minutes you sneak off will be when everything will go wrong.

If you have the right to sneak off, so do the Scouts.

If you don't have to use the buddy system, neither do the Scouts.

Boys don't always listen to our words but they always see our example.

- Craig

[kwildman]

"Most kids won't know?" Must be a cub scout leader who posted this - when kids hit about 12 years of age they know everything that the significant adults around them are doing, and in some cases why!

The more that we sell the kids short, the less that we can help them.

Yes I am a cub scout leader and a boy scout leader and ..... but that is irrelevant as the same BSA policies apply. I dont understand your problem w/ cub scout leaders? I chose to stay involved with cub scouts because I believe in the program and it is where we get 99% of our Boy Scouts.

Kids are usually pre-occupied enough that they dont notice when an adult leaves. I have been scouting long enough to know that an adult can get their nicotne fix in away from the boys. That is not selling anybody short. Adults have to pee too...its a good excuse to find a private location.

It is the adults responsibility to make sure that they are not around the boys. As a scout leader, it is my responsiblity to make sure that these policies are adhered to during scout functions.

[mhjacobson]

No problem with CS leaders, just representing the difference in the age groups of the Scouts. While CS may be too involved in a project to see a leaer 'sneek away,' that usually just does not happen with older than CS Scouts. The issue is just not having the scouts not see the adult leader smoke, it is the knowing that he is out there smoking (which is against the purpose of the policy).

[joat]

I'd be interested in some explanation about why a Scouter should have another adult go along as a "buddy" when he takes time for a smoke?

[FrankJ]

Requirement 9 of the Tenderfoot rank is to describe the buddy system. It is covered in the scout handbook. If you require your scouts to not to leave camp without a buddy, you should do the same for the adults or at the very least have a good explanation why safety rules only apply to scouts. Probably could use the same logic as to why no smoking only applies to scouts.

[milominderbinder2]

I'd be interested in some explanation about why a Scouter should have another adult go along as a "buddy" when he takes time for a smoke?

Because you lead by example not by your words.

If you get to pick and choose which rules you will follow, the boys get to as well.

- Craig

[joat]

I don’t consider the buddy system to be a rule. It’s a practice we use to help keep ourselves safe. One does not take a canoe out alone, or go climbing alone, or swimming or hiking alone. The buddy is a safety factor; if something goes wrong, your buddy can help.

The Boy Scout Handbook talks about the buddy system, but emphasizes the camaraderie part of doing things with a buddy. It’s more fun to work on a merit badge with a buddy, to share a tent with a buddy, even cooking and cleaning is more fun if the work is shared with a buddy.

You could consider the safety aspect of the buddy system to rule-like. The buddy system is discussed in several safety trainings: Safe Swim, Climb On Safely, Trek Safely, etc. But other than a few specific examples, the buddy system is no more a rule than the patrol method is a rule.

Sure, we lead by example. Adults don’t swim alone, and don’t take out a sailboat alone. Kids aren’t stupid and at some point they might decide they are “adult” enough to take a solo swim too, if that’s what the adults do. There also smart enough to know it’s ridiculous to have a buddy hanging on 24 hours a day. You don’t take a buddy to the toilet with you and you don’t take a buddy to fill your water bottle. I really doubt any kid is going to dismiss the buddy system because an adult walked off to smoke a cigarette without a “buddy”.

[mhjacobson]

The prior poster has got to be kidding: "You don't take a buddy to the toilet with you," "You don't take a buddy to get water with you . . ." That is exactly what is required for the scouts -- at all times they are to be with their buddy when not with the group. An adult should take a buddy with them then they take their stroll for a cigarette (although I am against the idea of an adult leaving hte group for a cigarette). I'll give you some examples of why: My council has two scout camps in Wisconsin, and Chicago Area Council has its camps in Michigan's lower pennsula. BOTH areas are the home habitat for the Massasauga Rattle Snake. While the snake is not overly aggressive, just don't disturb the rattle snake. AND they have been sighted on camp property. I don't think that I would want an adult strolling out alone when there is a chance, although slight, that they can get invenomated without a person there who can do the initial first aid, assist in getting the person out or getting aide in.

What is worst, is that having an adult stroll out of camp ALONE sets a bad example for the scouts whom we always want to be in a grouping of at least two (and yes that is a Guide to Same Scouting principal for ALL activities).

[joat]

No, I wasn’t kidding really. My understanding about the buddy system is that a kid doesn’t run off to explore the woods by himself for a few hours. He tells someone where he’s going and when he’ll be back, and takes a buddy. If he needs 3 minutes to fill his water bottle at the campground spigot, there is no safety issue and I don’t believe the buddy system was created for such an instance.

Of course I could be wrong and it would be helpful if someone could point out where in the Guide to Safe Scouting, or other source we are advised “that is exactly what is required for the scouts -- at all times they are to be with their buddy when not with the group.”

[mhjacobson]

I'll give you just a few examples. From the Guide to Safe Scouting in the section entotled Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings #8

If separate shower and latrine facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. The buddy system should be used for latrines by having one person wait outside the entrance, or provide the Occupied and Unoccupied signs and/or instide door latches.

Section on Snorkling Safety, #7.

All participants in snorkling activities are paired as buddies.

Section on Kayaking Safety #5

Scouts never go on the water alone. Every person must have a buddy, and every craft on the water must have a 'buddy boat'

Tail Safety:

Leaders must instruct those int heir groups to stay together on well-established trails, avoid loose rocks . . .

And for what started this thread:

IV. Drug, Alcohol, and Tobacco Use and Abuse: Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. All scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants.

[FrankJ]

For the record, the original comment was "and probably should take a buddy." Obviously this is something that requires situational common sense.

[FieldSports]

For Joat

From the GTSS - The Sweet Sixteen

#3. BUDDY SYSTEM
The long history of the "buddy system" in Scouting has shown that it is always best to have at least one other person with you and aware at all times as to your circumstances and what you are doing in any outdoor or strenuous activity.

[joat]

Thanks for the references, it pretty much confirms what I already knew.
Is a buddy required?
Go to the toilet? Please, be reasonable! As the quote says, the buddy is required only when separate shower and latrine facilities are not available. The purpose of the buddy is to stand guard and warn off the girls when a boy is taking a shower, or vice-versa, and even then is not required if “Occupied” signs are posted.

Snorkeling? Of course!

Stay together on trails? Of course!

To take a smoke? Sure it’s better to quit smoking, but no buddy is needed.

Strenuous activity? Makes sense.

I was looking more for the requirement that a Scout or Scouter must always have a buddy at ALL times. Obviously that is not a requirement or the G2SS, the Boy Scout Handbook, or the Scoutmaster Handbook would say that instead of listing the obvious need-a-buddy situations. As FrankJ said “Obviously this is something that requires situational common sense.”

[mhjacobson]

No it doesn't say that at all. What it refers to is the fact that where there are no signs, the buddy has to protect the privacy of his buddy. Where there are signs, etc., and two seats, the buddy can go in. The issue is NOT just the toilet but the going to and from the toilet.