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AlmostEagle
Scout
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 03:04 pm Post subject: Help with Adult
Leaders in Troop
Hello I just joined the forums. I was hoping some of you could
help me with a problem in my troop. We just returned from
summer camp. Most of the older boys in the troop (including
myself) didn't have such a good time. The main reason being
the adult leaders and SPL. It was my first time at this summer
camp. It was a nice camp. However the adult leaders didn't
give us any choices. We had to do everything they wanted us to
do. Many of the older boys were talking with me. They said the
camp was always fun the two years before. The main reason it
was bad this year is because we got a new Scoutmaster.
To expand on what is happening I'll tell you how all of this
started. Our old Scoutmaster was an Eagle scout and ran the
troop pretty well. Unfortunatly he had to move away for his
job. The new Scoutmaster is a nice guy but doesn't understand
how a troop is supposed to be run. He is joined by a couple
more adult leaders. At our last elections we select one of the
worst adults son (I know he'd be bad and didn't vote for him
unfortunatly some of the other scouts didn't think like me.).
His mom just retired from the police and know she is at every
meeting and taking total control. Basically she thinks her son
is the end all and be all. What these her and the other adults
are doing is trying to run the troop like "it is supposed to
be run". In reality they are running it the exact opposite and
the old Scoutmaster was running it correctly. Basically I was
hoping to get some advice from both scouts and adult leaders
from other troops on how to get these adults to back down.
Another big problem is they are teaching the new parents to
run it like this too. My fear is that it will be run like this
for a while and less scouts will want to join our troop.
Thanks for any advice.
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Kobalt
Star
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 03:16 pm Post subject:
Eagle, I can understand your problem. We've had a few bad
people in our troop, but fortunately our Scoutmaster has a
motto: By the time he leaves, this will have become a boy-run
troop.
Unfortunately, your Scoutmaster doesn't see it the same way as
our SM does. My advice to you would be to get together with
others that share your views on the matter. Write down all the
problems you have had since the new Scoutmaster came, and talk
to him about it (politely and like adults, mind you). Tell him
that you would like to help him help the troop as much as
possible. Explain what things you liked about your old
Scoutmaster, and what he could do to make your experience more
enjoyable. Remember, the Boy Scout Program is about the
scouts, not about the Scoutmasters. He probably is trying to
make it enjoyable, but doesn't know how.
As for your SPL, I'm sorry. Unfortunately, since the troop
voted him in, there's not much you can do. My troop votes for
the ASPL only, then he moves up to SPL in the next election.
Unfortunately, I lost to a kid who sounds much like your SPL
by one vote last election. Tonight I will be running for ASPL,
which will make me subordinate to him. I would rather have it
any other way, but I'm just going to have to deal with it the
best I can. You can either talk to him, or wait it out.
Whatever you do, don't let his mother take control. That
happened once in our troop with an overbearing mother. Hell
hath no fury...
_________________
John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager
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AlmostEagle
Scout
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 06:32 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the advice. As for the SPL his term is almost up. I
don't think he is going to win if he runs again. We were
hoping that if one of us wins we can try to get the adult
leaders off our backs and maybe his mom would back off since
her son won't be SPL. If anyone adult leaders are on the board
I'd like to here what they suggest. Thanks again
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optimist
Advancement Chairman
Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 06:43 pm Post subject:
There's no simple answer to a problem like this but not
knowing all sides of the story a simple answer is probably
best...
Training.
The Scouting program has some of the best training programs
I've seen in any organization. I've been on both sides of the
table, as the trainee and as the trainer. I think I learned
more while doing the latter.
Whether or not your Scoutmaster is good leader doesn't matter,
he will be a better leader for going to training. Also,
whether or not he thinks he is a good leader doesn't matter
either. All adult leaders need to go to training so we can
provide the best possible program to our Scouts.
Now, how do you get him to go to training? Obviously walking
up to him and telling him he needs training is not going to
sit well. Your best bet is probably to get the troop more
involved in district activities. I'm sure your district has
two or three district camporees a year. Get your troop to go
and when you get there get involved with helping the camporee
staff. Are you in the OA? Your chapter probably meets once a
month. Get your troop's OA members to go to these meetings and
help with OA activities. Go to the councilwide OA events and
be involved.
What do you accomplish by all this? Well, the better adult
leaders tend to help out at the district level in addition to
their work with a troop. By bringing yourself and your troop
to the attention of these leaders, they will probably take
more interest in your troop and your troop's leaders. Many of
these same adult leaders will probably work on training staffs
and they will try to sell your Scout leader on the idea that a
well trained leader results in a better troop.
By now you're probably thinking to yourself there's an awful
lot of work in what I've suggested and it will take a long
time. Correct on both counts. As I said, there's no easy
answer here. I think trying to come up with some quick and
easy answer would only make matters worse.
One good thing though is that if you get really active at the
district level you may improve your troop's program quite a
bit through your own action. That would be well worth the time
and effort. I wish you the best.
Oh and Kobalt, I love your Scoutmaster's attitude
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AlmostEagle
Scout
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 09:17 pm Post subject:
About Kobalt's Scoutmaster's motto that is what these adult
leaders think they are trying to do. However they are too
involved. For Example, we had a patrol leaders meeting about a
month ago. My dad was talking to some one (i don't know who it
was for sure) about these meetings. He was told that the
Scoutmaster was basically just suppose to sit back and listen
to the meeting. However in ours the Scoutmaster and Assitant
Scoutmaster (the SPL's mom) were running it and we basically
spent 2 hours there and accomplished nothing. Another thing
I'd like to mention that I don't think I made very clear is
that the Scoutmaster is a good guy. I don't really think it is
his fault. He is indeed too involved however the main problem
is the Assitant Scoutmaster (the SPL's mom). Thanks alot for
the advice.
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Billvann
Second Class
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 19
Location: McHenry, IL
Posted: 21 Jul 2004 07:55 am Post subject:
optimist wrote:
There's no simple answer to a problem like this but not
knowing all sides of the story a simple answer is
probably best...
Training.
I would add that you may also address severe issues with your
parents who can then bring them up to the troop committee.
It's their responsibility to help oversee the troop and guide
the leaders. But it must be positioned as desire to enact
positive change, not an effort to dump the new SM. And I would
only recommend it if your concerns and suggestions to the SM
are ignored. It is only proper and polite that you first try
to work things out with him. After all, he is volunteering his
time and energy to provide you and the others with programs
and growth opportunities. He wouldn't have stepped up if he
didn't believe that or believe he could have a hand in
delivering that goal.
In the long run, he will be better off to head your
suggestions as a leader who sholders all of the decision will
soon burn out because everyone, including the other leaders,
will start to back-off and simply defer to him. And the scouts
who chose to remain will start to take advantage of the
situation and start to ignore living up to the oath and law as
they will no longer have responsibility or be acountable for
the troop.
_________________
Willie Vannerson
ASM Troop 149
McHenry, IL
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 21 Jul 2004 02:57 pm Post subject:
Training, training, training!!!!!
We had a CC Chair, and Webelos leader doing the same things,
not following the Scout guidelines and not attending training,
just running the pack the way they wanted.
We got a pack trainer who got after the leaders and the
chartered organization rep. And got the problem fixed, over
time.
Work with the committee, and if you dont get results,go to an
often unused resource. The unit Commissioner, this is the guy
that visits your troop to see how your troop is functioning,
and offers suggestions and solutions to help your troop run
better.
_________________
Bob Torkelson
Scoutmaster Troop 538
www.wx5troop538.homestead.com
Live The Oath!
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Kobalt
Star
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 12:00 am Post subject:
The fact that he is a good guy should make it even easier.
Tell him that you don't dislike him; you would just like to
offer improvements on the way he runs the troop, to make the
scouting event more enjoyable for everyone.
_________________
John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager
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wagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 192
Location: PA
Posted: 25 Jul 2004 07:18 pm Post subject: Adult Leadership
It is important that the youth make the decesions as to what
goes on in the Troop. The adults can guide but after all the
Troop is for the Boys. AGain these adults do not sound like
they are trained or if they were they slept through the
sessions. On your charters it ask if the ledership is trained
and if not you cannot make Quality Troop. I do Climbing Merit
Badge at a Local area and we get alot of adults that want to
take the mb with the boys. I have now started that no you
cannot do that BUT we will arrange a session while your boys
are in the classroom part. SOme donot like this But if they
don't do it my way they do not do it. The Boys are more
relaxed in class and the Adults do not take up valuble time
away from the Youth. Your troop sounds like one of these
troops the adults think they are boys in the Troop.
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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AlmostEagle
Scout
Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
Posted: 29 Jul 2004 11:28 am Post subject:
Thanks alot for everyone's help. wagionvigil you are right
about the adults think they are the boys. Many of us have
decided that who ever the next SPL is (hopefully one of us)
will be able to get the adults to back off. Thanks again for
the help.
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RWSmith
Counselor
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 10:43 am Post subject:
AlmostEagle,
I agree that training is the key. In most cases, it's Ram Rod,
aggressive-personality type ADULTS (like me) who need it most.
Adult Leaders who are against training, including recurring,
continuing education should be avoided like the plague. (Too
strong? I think not.) Also, no Adult Leader has the right to
dictate to you or any other Scout what merit badge he will (or
will not) take. Guide, counsel, advise, insist? Sure. But,
getting a Blue Card from a SM or ASM is not an issue of
getting permission to work on any MB; it's simply a matter of
policy, procedure, courtesy.
Talk to the SM. Just him and you and the other Sr. Scouts. If
he's not trained, yet... Tell him (courteously, respectfully)
he must make it so. Think you can't? Why not? It's your Troop,
not theirs. Never forget that. If he agrees; fine. (Give him
the next two training opportunities to get it done; it does
take time for a SM to get a "Trained" patch.) Tell him, also,
that he's the head coach and it's his job to keep everybody
(including ASMs) out your planning the program; that if y'all
need guidance, you'll ask him for it. If he doesn't let you
guys run the program, tell him two things... Tell him you're
gonna take it up the "chain of command" and that you all
(however many of you there are that agreed to) are gonna
"walk"... That's right, walk... Go find another Troop. Look,
think about it... if you don't get the program back into the
hands of the PLC, you and the other Sr. Scouts will, sooner or
later, end up leaving by ones and twos anyhow. Get it on the
table. There's strength in numbers. Don't keep your SM in the
dark; tell him what you're doing and why. Visit two or three
other Troops. I GUARANTEE that will wake up the chain of
command... the CC, the UC (if you have one) and the ADC, DC
and DE, too. Then, if you must, make a decision as a group,
and walk as a group.
Regarding the ASM, let me put this to you... You and you
fellow Sr. Scouts need to back the SPL to the hilt! Even if
the current SPL gets re-elected. That's right; you heard me
correctly. He needs to be serving you guys at the Scout
meetings, not his mama. And not even peer pressure is gonna
beat mama when she's standing right there. As long as you guys
are together, you're gonna have to be LOYAL to one another and
work together, as a team, regardless of your varied leadership
styles or personality differences. And OBEDIENCE does not give
parents (ASM or not) the authority to run your PLCs when you
are perfectly capable and willing to do it yourselves. It
would do your Troop well to make these two facts known,
respectfully, at the next PLC. Your SPL needs you, right now,
far more than you realize.
The best kept secret in Scouting is that you can always find
another Troop (or go Lone Scout). And there's no shame in
that. I'd rather see a kid switch Troops than quit, ANY DAY. I
know. I did both.
_________________
Bob Smith, OA, NESA, DAV
ADC, Apache District
If you can read this, thank a teacher... If you can read it in
English, thank a Veteran.
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optimist
Advancement Chairman
Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 148
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 06:35 pm Post subject:
Anarchy!!!
While what RW is saying is quite true, please don't go rushing
off making demands. Work with your adults and come to an
agreement, a comprimise of some kind. Frankly, I believe if
you point your adult leadership in the right direction (ie
training so they'll understand the basics of the program),
even if you comprimise now once they understand things better
they'll see why Scouting does things they way they do and it
will all work out
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wagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 192
Location: PA
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 06:39 pm Post subject:
Training is everything
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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RWSmith
Counselor
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 01 Aug 2004 07:56 pm Post subject:
optimist wrote:
While what RW is saying is quite true, please don't go
rushing off making demands. Work with your adults
and.... they'll see why Scouting does things they way
they do and it will all work out
Eagle,
Optimist is right; you can't start out making demands... I
certainly didn’t mean to imply you should be tossing
ultimatums into the fray, like hand grenades. <KaBoom!> For
that, I apologize. I frequently come across as opinionated. (I
believe it’s because I’m passionate about my beliefs. Swhatcha
get when you mix Scots-Irish and American Indian blood.) I can
also sometimes be quite tactless, especially on discussion
boards; no misunderstanding there. However, as passionate as I
can be, I truly believe I’m open-minded (on all but two
issues). So, my mind can be changed, in a good debate (i.e.,
argument in my house).
You teenagers gotta give us adults time to come around to
seeing things your way. I know full well just how insanely
stupid y’all think we really are. <G> Adding credence to that
statement, whenever you teenagers (i.e., seriously advanced,
enlightened beings) talk to any adult (i.e., Neanderthals),
you gotta shoot straight. Don’t beat around the bush. Be
polite; but, don’t (overly) sugar-coat it to avoid hurting an
adult’s feelings. We may be stupid; but, we aren’t blathering
idiots, either. [Well, most of us.] You gotta state the facts,
as you see them, and indicate CLEARLY that… you want to
negotiate.
Anyhow, I failed (earlier) to apply a reasonable timeline to
my suggestions. In my experience, Outdoor Leadership Skills
only comes around once, maybe twice, a year… So, it’s probably
going to take your SM a year (give or take a several months)
to complete his required training. BTW, you’d surely be
surprised at the change in your ASM (and her son, too!) if
she’d just take the same training. Ah, but… in order for you
to see that, you’ll have to stick it out… and give them a
chance. Like it or not, you and the other Sr. Scouts in your
Troop are the ones that know the Troop’s traditions; and, it’s
up to you to carry the Unit Leaders (ULs), for now. If you
bail now, you’ll be takin’ the roots of the Troop with you and
the young Scouts will be left hangin. Scouting is a lot like
family. So, it may take several chances. All I meant earlier
is, don’t be afraid to tell it like it is. Just do it
respectfully.
BTW, nowhere is it written that your new SM (or ASM) must see
or do things the old way, even if it was the right way. So,
here’s some more stuff to consider… If you whine more than
three or four times about how Mr. So-and-so used to do it,
you’re likely to put a tall wall between you both, even though
he may never show it. Scoutmasters are human, too. It’s not my
intention to sound negative here, but… Odds are, he’ll resent
it. Also, the Youth Leader (YLs) do not have to be elected.
Although probably not the norm, the SM can appoint any or all
YL positions, including SPL, ASPL and PL. I've seen that work
well when a new SM came on board. So, it’s true, the SM is
there to serve you guys; but, you’re not his boss, either. He
(or she) is held accountable to the CC.
So, although you do have the right to walk… YOU REALLY OWE IT
TO YOURSELF, AND YOUR TROOP, TO GIVE IT EVERYTHING YOU’VE GOT,
FIRST.
Now, if you’ve read this far, and I have failed to make you
either laugh or angry, then I haven’t done my job. Maybe next
time.
_________________
Bob Smith, OA, NESA, DAV
ADC, Apache District
If you can read this, thank a teacher... If you can read it in
English, thank a Veteran.
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Godwyn IV
Second Class
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Greater Western Reserve Council
Posted: 02 Aug 2004 09:50 am Post subject:
RWSmith wrote:
I know full well just how insanely stupid y’all think we
really are... We may be stupid; but, we aren’t
blathering idiots, either. [Well, most of us.]
I have a feeling some in my troop would put me in that
catagory with the adults.
Just reading this post makes me be thankful that this bboard
was put up. Its nice to know that there are adults who really
do care about scouts (alot that is)
_________________
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a
dog, it's too dark to read."
-Groucho Marx
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