ESBOR Representative Certification....

[Scouting179]

That's why I was surprised... because I took the ESBOR Re-certification last September, that's what we were told, plus the relative thingy being a no-no.

What is an ESBOR certification?

[cballman]

ESBOR certification = Eagle Scout Board of Reveiw Certificatiom

it seems to me that for some people to sit on a Eagle BOR they must go through a process to make sure that it is done properly. I can see this at the District or Council level but a troop level NO. also it is my understanding that as an ASM that I cannot sit on a Eagle BOR for any boy im MY troop. BUT I can sit on any other Eagle BOR for any other boy. so yes I can see why they want a certificate to have the best BOR but I dont think it is all that nessecery.

[wagionvigil]

Never heard of it!!!!

[Scouting179]

I never heard of it either. Maybe this is specific to a certain council or district.

[wagionvigil]

? Making up rules?

[commish3]

We just do a 15 minute orientation prior to the scout entering to familiarize the board members with the process.

[RWSmith]

The ESBOR Certification is a real course; it is mandatory for District/Council Scouters who sit on ESBORs as the District/Council Representative; it is also only good for two years, and must be taken again for re-certification. This course is an excellent, but certainly not mandatory, course for Troop Committee members, especially those who are asked sit on Eagle Boards.

As to its application on a national level? I really don't know. I do know several Councils require (offer) this course, as described above.

[commish3]

Please help me out RWSmith, I would be interested in learning more about that mandatory course. I have never heard of it before, and there is no mention of it in either the BSA's Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual or the Council Training Committee manual which lists all training syllabii in the BSA and their publication #. I also checked the 2002 BSA resource library and found no mention of it there.
Would you happen to have the BSA publication # on it?

[RWSmith]

Sure thing, Commish; no problem. I'll find out what I can and get back in touch, tomorrow. Just to reiterate though... I know this course is offered in a number of councils across the country, including my own. From what I can tell, the other councils that offer this course also manage it like we do.. it's only good for two years; must be retaken to be re-certified; and, is mandatory for those who sit on ESBORs as the District/Council Representative. Like I said before, I don't know what the national policy is, if any. But, I'll certainly find out what I can.

This I can tell you... It has made a tremendous difference (for the better) in our council.

[riverwalk]

This Scouter doesn't know either. But since we represent a variety of areas (Councils), we can all do a little detective work and chime in.

[RWSmith]

Commish, et al,

I just had a pleasant telephone conversation with a lady in the National Eagles Scout Service office and then, the National Director of Advancement (or, the Great White Teepee, as he affectionately called it). Neither of them had ever heard of an ESBOR Rep. Cert. class; but, they sure liked the idea. The Director also pointed out that it would be a good course for Scoutmasters (not mandatory, of course). I noted how it had helped me as a Commissioner in answering ESBOR-related questions when visiting units, especially committee members. As per his request, I'm going to send him some info. on the course.

BTW, I don't make it a habit of by-passing my chain of comand by calling the folks at that National office; but, I ain't afraid of them neither. (If you know what I mean... protocol, politics and all that jazz.) Everybody I've ever talked to down there has always shown the upmost courtesy and helpfulness, especially for us folks down here in the trenches.

[commish3]

So at this point in time it is not a mandatory course good for two years for anyone serving as a representative of a district or council advancemnt committee for Eagle boards is that correct?

[RWSmith]

Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:09 pm...

As to its application on a national level? I really don't know. I do know several Councils require (offer) this course, as described above.

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:25 pm...

Just to reiterate though... I know this course is offered in a number of councils across the country, including my own. Like I said before, I don't know what the national policy is, if any. But, I'll certainly find out what I can.

Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:12 pm...

I just had a pleasant telephone conversation with [....] the National Director of Advancement [who] never heard of an ESBOR Rep. Cert. class.... As per his request, I'm going to send him some info. on the course.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, ya'll... But, the ESBOR Representative Certification class is not offered Nationally. Like I said before, it is offered in several, (but not all... Sorry, I should've said that before.), Councils; and, from what I can tell, where it is offered, it is required for District/Council Representatives (who represent the District/Council on ESBORs); also, from what I can tell, where it is offered, it's only good for two years.

So, Bro. Commish, in answer to your question, I guess it depends on your Council's policy.

[commish3]

I wonder RWSmith, when it comes to the four areas of scouting controlled by BSA national policies (Membership, Safety, Uniform, and Advancement) does a district or council have the authority to make arbitrary policies? I am not sure that they do.

[wagionvigil]

I will answer that one. NO!

[RWSmith]

Commish,

We both know this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with any District or Council violating any national policies. We also know there's absolutely nothing wrong with a Council developing and implementing a Training course for Scouters that ensures the participants get the current, correct information to do their jobs effectively and consistently.

ar·bi·trar·y (Adj.): Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.

[commish3]

I respectfully disagree. I think when a local unit, district or council sets mandated policies in areas already controlled by the BSA that they have likely overreached their authority.

I think providing the training is great. But even you were lead to believe that this was a BSA sanctioned and mandated program because of the way it was presented in your council.

A quick Google of the course showed 6 councils out of nearly 300 that use this course even if that were only representative of 10% of councils that use it, it is by no means a wide spread course. I have lived and volunteered in 4 councils in the midwest and mid-atlantic areas and been a BSA trainer for decades and have never even heard of it.

I get concerned when programs or policies are represented (even accidentally) as national mandated programs when they are merely local creations and not sanctioned by the BSA. This is how so many of the folk lore policies originate.

I am not saying you personally did anything wrong. But councils should be carefull about creating these misconceptions.

[RWSmith]

I think providing the training is great. But even you were lead to believe that this was a BSA sanctioned and mandated program because of the way it was presented in your council.

Uh, no... that's simply not true, Commish. In fact, I made myself quite clear, repeatedly. And the last attempt was merely an effort to appease that which (I believed) had already been so obviously stated.

I think when a local unit, district or council sets mandated policies in areas already controlled by the BSA that they have likely overreached their authority. [....] I get concerned when programs or policies are represented (even accidentally) as national mandated programs when they are merely local creations and not sanctioned by the BSA. This is how so many of the folk lore policies originate.

You know, if that were the case, I would be concerned, too. However, according to "national policy"... "At least one district or council advancement representative must be a member of the Eagle board of review if the board of review is conducted on a unit level. A council or district may designate more than one person to serve as a member of Eagle boards of review when requested to do so by the unit. It is not required that these persons be members of the advancement committee; however, they must have an understanding of the importance of the Eagle board of review.” (Emphasis added.) Clearly, the Council has, not only the authority, but an obligation, to ensure its District/Council Representatives have an understanding of the importance of the Eagle board of review. Certainly, a supplemental District/Council ESBOR Representative certification course would be just one of many ways to meet that obligation.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong; well, maybe I am, but not personally. I'm simply saying I believe the Council has an obligation to ensure its District/Council ESBOR Representatives are properly, correctly, and consistently trained with the most current information available. And the manner in which the local Scout Executive chooses to be assured the aforementioned obligation is being met, remains up to him or her. If nothing else, we can simply agree to disagree.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Well I've checked this one out here in my council and they've never heard of it either? I too find it odd that one council can mandate this training when others have never heard of it. So troops have guidelines of what they can and cannot do but councils can mandate and change requirements to their own discretion? hum....

Yes, I know, even if the rules they decide to follow are helpful, beneficial to the program and so on.

[RWSmith]

I too find it odd that one council can mandate this training when others have never heard of it. So troops have guidelines of what they can and cannot do but councils can mandate and change requirements to their own discretion? hum....

Let me try another tact... Let's say that, for the sake of argument, the Scout Executive asks the Council Advancement Committee to develop a method that ensures these representatives know the current policies and to be able to document (track) who is up on the current policies issued by the National Council. (It has already been established that the Council is responsible for ensuring this. Why not document it?) Since everybody who represents the District/Council at an ESBOR has either asked, or been asked, to do so, let's just say that, if you want to do so, then you should be able to show that you are so qualified... ergo sit in on a very convenient class every two years.

You know, if we were messing with a Scout's advancement requirements, I could easily see the problem. But, I'd guess that a nearly every adult "training program" that is standard today, began in one council, then two, then ten, then National took note...