i need some advice

[hacimsaalk]

our troop is having some MAJOR problems. our leadership is really lacking. our SPL is never there (b/c of sports), and our ASPL is the laziest person i know. at troop meetins, the older scouts, minus me & another scout, sit around and BS about everything but scout stuff. (ex. school, the lastest game, hunting, fishing, gf's,ect.) the younger scouts (for the most part) wont listen to anyone, all they do is run around. 2 of the scouts thing they know it all, and al they do is boss people around. at the klondike 2 weekends ago, all these scouts did was yell at each other. this is a slight summary. we have many more problems, but i dont want to fill up more space.

i have been asked by our CC, and a new ASM ,that has been SPL before, to step up, and at least ask the ASPL to step down. ( they really would like me to ask the SPL to step down) i really dont know what to do. im really good friends with the SPL, and i dont want to seem like im full of my self. i also have my eagle to word on. im still the patrol leader of the High adventure. THis summer, i have ajob lined up that would take me away for a month straight. this summer our scout troop is also going to summer camp, and with all the other things im doing, i dont think im going to be able to attend to support my troop. i also dont want to step up, only to fail in my attempt to right my troop. on the other hand, i know something has to be done, & people believe i am the person to do it.

any help or insight on this would be appreciated (ASAP)


p.s.-im sorry that this is so long, but i couldnt put enoguh down without having it this long.

[Mrw]

How long to elections come around?

Probably the best thing you can do is step up and show some leadership now for the younger boys so they can get back under control.

Run for SPL the next time around and probably the younger boys will all vote for you. That way you can run things the way you want.

You should not be put in the position of asking either of the other boys to step down. That is not your job. The SM or an ASM should be intervening with the ASPL and SPL to let them know there is a problem and help them to do better. The boys voted for who they wanted and they chose poorly. Hopefully, they learn from that.

[hacimsaalk]

the elections arent till next july. if something isnt done soon, all our troop is going to turn into is a play place for kids to come to.

[Eamonn]

Please know that I feel your pain.
One lesson that many of us have a hard time learning is knowing when to say "NO".
I can't help but think you are showing a great deal of maturity by knowing and voicing your limitations.
You mentioned the ASM and the CC. Where is the SM???
This needs to be talked about at the PLC meeting.
The meeting needs to be held at a time and place when and where you can be sure that the SPL is going to be there!!
I kind of think that the Troop Meetings are in need of a good dose of planning.
If the meetings are well planned and everyone knows what they have to do, even if the SPL can't make the meetings things ought to go a lot better.
I'm guessing that the High Adventure Patrol is the same as the Venture Patrol??
Maybe working with the PLC you can offer the services of these older Scouts to add some sparkle to the meetings. Adding sparkle isn't yelling, bossing or making life miserable for the younger Scouts.
You migh want to meet with the SM and let him know that while you know that you can't be around this summer that you are thinking of running for SPL when the election comes around, see what he has to say.

[hacimsaalk]

the SM isnt completly oblivious. he just hasnt seemed to have the time, or the "need" to talk. (i get along better with the ASM & CC). our PLC is horrible. all that gets done is me planning the meetings for the next month.

im really not too upset that our SPL isnt showing up all the time. i had to miss a few meetings for soccer season. what really p's me off is when our ASPL sits around and BS's along with everyone else.

our SPL is really trying to turn things around. since the last time he was at a meeting, it is a complete 180 degree turn. (our ASPL is heading in the absolute opposite direction though)

our older boys consist of me, the ASPL, SPL, and on occassion 2 other boys. im really the only one who is willing to help out on a regular basis

i dont think he'll havge a problem, cuz regardless, im running for it. and thats that.

[Eamonn]

hacimsaalk,
While you might get along better with the ASM and the CC, I really think that you need to talk with the SM.
As for the ASPL, this is a tough one. I'm guessing that he was selected by the SPL? The guy that isn't there!!
Again I see the PLC as your only way of fixing this.
You might want to have a meeting before the next PLC with the SPL and see if you can give him some ideas of what might be on the agenda.

[hacimsaalk]

hacimsaalk,
While you might get along better with the ASM and the CC, I really think that you need to talk with the SM.
As for the ASPL, this is a tough one. I'm guessing that he was selected by the SPL? The guy that isn't there!!
Again I see the PLC as your only way of fixing this.
You might want to have a meeting before the next PLC with the SPL and see if you can give him some ideas of what might be on the agenda.

well, im not trying to put it all onto the SPL, b/c i know what its like not being able to be there because of sports. i do think he couldve picked a better ASPL, or put someone else in charge, whil he was gone.

i know i need to talk to the SM, but most of the time i talk to him ( at least in scouts,) i feel what i say is going in one ear and out the other.

as far as our PLC goes, it is almost nonexsistent. the only ones who do things at these meeting are me, the SPL ( when hes around), one patrol leader, one older scout ( who turns 18 in less than 2 monthes), and a younger scout ( whos on fire to advance). other than that, its composed of people whod rather not do anyhting than sit around & play wideo games. i really think our PLC could use an overhaul while we're in the process.

[Eamonn]

hacimsaalk,
If I were the SM.
I'd be very disappointed in the ASM.
He has no right to ask you to do anything like this. I'd also be none to happy with the CC.
It seems that the older Scouts are just attending the Troop meetings to do their own thing and if you are the PL, you need to take on the job that you were elected to do. That being leading the Patrol. You along with this ASM and the CC are not keeping the Scout Law.
All 3 of you are not being loyal, not being trustworthy,not being obedient, not being kind, not being helpful. In fact not acting like anything I would see as being Scoutlike.
With an example like this who can blame the younger Scouts for not understanding what it takes to be a Scout.

[RWSmith]

Micah,

My advice would be to chill out (just a little)... What I mean to say is... that, life is about the journey, not the destination.

Try this... make a concious decision to not worry or get wrapped up in the things that wrong, or the things that you don't have any control over. And, if you must, then try to look for a way to turn the negative into a positive. Or, IOW, try to find a way to turn the "problem" into an opportunity. For example, you see a problem with the PLC; and, you aim to turn that into an "opportunity" by running for various leadership positions so you can make positive changes. That's good. But, IN THE MEANTIME... try to meke every little action, decision, comment, whatever, between now and then to make it better. For example, help the current PLC whenever you can. By lifting them up, you prove yourself as a loyal team player. You also get the positive exposure you need to get elected to something like SPL.

One more thing... Do you know how one eats an elephant?.... One bite at a time. IOW, the best way (usually) to make a big change (especially in any all-volunteer organization), is to make a lot of little changes, over a period of time.

[hacimsaalk]

hacimsaalk,
If I were the SM.
I'd be very disappointed in the ASM.
He has no right to ask you to do anything like this. I'd also be none to happy with the CC.
It seems that the older Scouts are just attending the Troop meetings to do their own thing and if you are the PL, you need to take on the job that you were elected to do. That being leading the Patrol. You along with this ASM and the CC are not keeping the Scout Law.
All 3 of you are not being loyal, not being trustworthy,not being obedient, not being kind, not being helpful. In fact not acting like anything I would see as being Scoutlike.
With an example like this who can blame the younger Scouts for not understanding what it takes to be a Scout.

not to be rude or anything, but i have to disagree with you. in my mind, it is the SM's job to do what the ASM & CC have done. he hasnt done it, and this had been going on almost since the last elections. ( the troop shouldnt suffer b/c of him, after all, he isnt voted in). the CC has also been the SM before ( right before the current SM), so he knows what hes talking about. im not a PL or even a APL, i am the troop guide. im doing the job im suppossed to do, and more. im not the one whos suppossed to run the troop ( minus doind the flag presentation at the beginning of each meeting). what are u trying to say? im not doing my job? i need to let our troop fall to almost nothing? what do u mean by i need to do the job i was elected to do?

how are we not being loyal. we never pledged loyalty to the SM, our loyalty should be to the troop, not the SM. trustworthy??? we have done nothing to dissporve our trust. obedient???? the SM is not my parent, nor has he told me to change anything, or stop something. if we are guilty of anything, it is trying to lighten the load of an already strected thin SM.

and, i think uve gone over the line with saying we have been bad examples. you wouldnt believe how the younger scouts look up to us. if anything, we are showing them how a scout should act ( btw- they know nothing about anything with the CC, ASM, SPL, or ASPL. ) i think that statement was a little misguided.

[cballman]

hacimsaalk after reading and rereading your post it seems to me that there are people and you in your troop that thinks its not being run right. if that is so then the person or persons that need to be contacted is the COR,SM, and the CC. they then will make the decisions about the troop leadership. if it is a problem with the boys then the SPL is the first person to go to then you go to the SM. but if it just a boy problem the SM needs to step up and explain to the boy leaders what is expected of them. seems to me like you and the other leaders want to have a hostile takeover. maybe someone could take the ASPL aside and try to explain what needs to be done. also it seems to me that the boys in your troop need a Junior Leaders training day. that is where you teach leadership to the boys. also maybe the adult leaders need training also. sometimes you need to let the boys fail and then learn from their mistakes. just a few thoughts from a leader who has taught JLT to the boys and have learned from it also.

[hops_scout]

Micah,

I believe your first step is to relax. It's been 4 months since my term as SPL as ended. Of course, my leadership doesn't stop, but my "running" the troop does.

I think you need to go back and look at the job description for Troop Guide is. Typically, the troop guide is assigned to a specific patrol, right? You guide that patrol and get it going and leave the troop stuff to the hands of the PLC. That includes the SPL, ASPL(s), PLs, etc.

I'm going to agree with Eamonn here in that you don't seem to be acting too loyal toward both your SPL and your SM. Give them a chance. Maybe give advice, but you should not just step in and take over. That goes for all of you- you, the ASM, CC, etc

Back to our troop situation--
I think our current SPL is doing an "ok" job. Definitely could be better. He just needs experience and maturity. Our older boys mainly like to goof around and he is one of them. If I could convince him/ them to get back to being a Scout troop, instead of the Boys' Club, that would be great. But that isn't my job. Currently, I am serving as JASM. My main objective as of late has been to mentor him and the ASPL. I have to be careful, though, because my "take over" instincts have come up several times. I work hard to support him as much as possible and to keep from taking over.

If I remember correctly, you were SPL at one point? Would you like somebody just taking over? Council the SPL and ASPL, but don't take over. Otherwise, you may end up with a bigger mess than already is.

Just remember, you're not the first one to be in this type of situation, and won't be the last. Also, please remember this is coming from somebody in a similar situation at a similar age. Remember that I am not an adult leader, but a youth leader just like you.

[EagleBoy62204]

i have the similar thing in our troop right now. since im 19, im a new asm, its real hard to sit back and watch them fail and fall over and over again. believe me i know your pain.

the first question is what is your rank and age? if you are a older scout, why not make it your obligation to get everyone straightend out. set a strict policy and make it known that who the boss in the troop is. it isnt the scoutmasters job to babysit you guys, the method behind boy scouts, is that its boy ran, not adult ran. adult run is the way of the cub scouts.

you may say, im not leadership why should i step up? my answer is, because your an older scout. it sounds to me that you are not a little kid and have the ability to run the group as a responsible scout. Then why not. If you want spl, this will be the biggest opportunity to show your leadership skills off.

for plans, why not call a couple merit badge councilors up and see if you cant have a few badges offered at the meetings. tell the boys they have so many weeks to prepare, and have them go over the badge requirements as a group. then when that date comes for the counsilor to come to the meetings, they all can get the badge.

dealing with the little kids issue...
have another leader, boy or adult start a first year program dealing with these kids. it seems to be a immaturity problem. your next step is to talk t o the parents and to the committee about this growing problem. remember, boy scouts is supposed to be a boy run organization, you dont want to constantly go to the adults for help, but in some sever cases you have to.

dont feel down, eventually the group will straightn out. leadership needs to be a big role in this. DONT let them walk all over you guys.

[hops_scout]

EagleScout, it sounds like you're calling for a dictatorship there!

set a strict policy and make it known that who the boss in the troop is. it isnt the scoutmasters job to babysit you guys, the method behind boy scouts, is that its boy ran, not adult ran. adult run is the way of the cub scouts.

It also isn't the Troop Guide's job to run the troop. That would technically fall into the job description of the SPL along with his PLC. If they are not doing their jobs, then there needs to be intervention from the SM and the other adult leaders. Apparently the SM has not trained the PLC to operate properly, and therefore needs to take corrective action to fix the problem.

[EagleBoy62204]

@ hops.
im not calling for a dictatorship, but you gota add some control. the lack of control is the reason why the kids are roudy and not listening. With no one trying to control them, thats the reason why they can run the troop and walk all over the older boys.

it happens in my troop and every other troop that lacks disipline. you get tired of it eventually and sometimes you have to be mean. theyll get over it.

[Eamonn]

hacimsaalk
On January 30, 2006 you posted: " im still the patrol leader of the High adventure. "
This is a position that I had never heard of.
On January 31,2006 I posted "I'm guessing that the High Adventure Patrol is the same as the Venture Patrol?? "
On February 5 ,2006 I now read that hacimsaalk states:
" im not a PL or even a APL, i am the troop guide."
As for the questions about the Scout Law.
I think you might want to dig out your copy of the Boy Scout Handbook,.
But lets take a closer look:
hacimsaalk asks "how are we not being loyal. we never pledged loyalty to the SM, our loyalty should be to the troop, not the SM.
The Boy Scout Handbook page 48: A Scout is Loyal
A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school and nation.
hacimsaalk: "trustworthy???"
The Boy Scout Handbook page 47:
A Scout tells the truth. He is honest and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.
hacimsaalk: obedient???? the SM is not my parent,"
The Scout Handbook page 50
A Scout is obedient.
A Scout follows the rules of family, school and troop. It goes on to say:
"When your Scout Leader asks you to do a job.
The Scoutmaster has been approved by the organization that charters the Troop and the Troop Committee to be the Scoutmaster. So while he wasn't elected he is the Scoutmaster.
His removal or his staying on as Scoutmaster is in the hands of the Chartering Organization.
I very strongly suggest that you dust off the Boy Scout Handbook and give some thought to what being a Scout is all about.
You might want to pay special attention to the line in the Scout Oath that states"To help other people at all times"
When you think you have got it pass the Handbook on to the ASM.

[OldGreyBear]

If as an adult the only wayyou see to restore order is to be "mean" then the adult troop leadership has completely failed the boys. If the SPL cant control the meeting, then he has not be properly trained. the SPL is the person the scouts have elected to lead the troop. What was it about him that lead to his election?

Adults can intimadate scouts into submission but then all you have are prisioners, you dont have a troop.

[Lynda J]

I have a real issue with a CC that goes to a boy and ask him to have another scout step down from an elected position.
The on ly one that can remove a Scout from a position is the entire troop in a recall election. The SM can remove someone if they are causing a danger for the other boys. But that is the reason we have elections.

If the ENTIRE troop is so unhappy with this SPL and ASPL then they need to go to the SM and have a recall election.

[hacimsaalk]

.. the SPL is the person the scouts have elected to lead the troop. What was it about him that lead to his election?

im not quite sure. it was me and him runnign for it. me, along with another few scouts believe it turned into a popularity contest ( like usual), and he won.

If the ENTIRE troop is so unhappy with this SPL and ASPL then they need to go to the SM and have a recall election.

the thing with our troop is that it is afraid to do something like this. some are even to scared to go to an ASM or the SM to get things signed off.

i have a real issue with a CC that goes to a boy and ask him to have another scout step down from an elected position.

i have an excellent relationship with the CC. it wasnt like he came right out and asked me to have him step down. we talked about over the couse of a few weeks, and me and my dad talked about it. together, we came to the conclusion/observation that it would be best to at least have the ASPL step down.

I very strongly suggest that you dust off the Boy Scout Handbook and give some thought to what being a Scout is all about.
You might want to pay special attention to the line in the Scout Oath that states"To help other people at all times"
When you think you have got it pass the Handbook on to the ASM.

i am fullfilling the scout law to the best of my ability, how i see i should. it has to be really easy to criticize other people, without really knowing the situation. to help other people at all times-- well, what does it say to do in this situation? should i help out the scout troop by stepping up and pointing out what is right & wrong, or should i just step back, and watch the SM do nothing? please tell me.

set a strict policy and make it known that who the boss in the troop is. it isnt the scoutmasters job to babysit you guys, the method behind boy scouts, is that its boy ran, not adult ran. adult run is the way of the cub scouts

eaamon, eaglescout has made my point. it is the BOYS job to run the troop. in my mind ( and mot of my troops mind) it isnt the SM's job to take charge of somehting like this. if the boys want a different SPL, or PL, they either act collectively, or alone. and they either ask for a re-vote, for the person to step down, or they try to counsel them in the way they need to go .

[hacimsaalk]

Micah,


I think you need to go back and look at the job description for Troop Guide is. Typically, the troop guide is assigned to a specific patrol, right? You guide that patrol and get it going and leave the troop stuff to the hands of the PLC. That includes the SPL, ASPL(s), PLs, etc.

I'm going to agree with Eamonn here in that you don't seem to be acting too loyal toward both your SPL and your SM. Give them a chance. Maybe give advice, but you should not just step in and take over. That goes for all of you- you, the ASM, CC, etc
.

in our troop, since it is rather small, we only have one troop guide. ( me) it works well this way. we also include everyone with a position in the PLC ( this includes me). when we have PLC meetings, i usually plan all events for the month including all meetings, ect. if i were to leave everything in the hands of the SPL- maybe things would get done. if i left it to the PLC in whole, the troop would do nothing but play hackie-sack at every meeting.

im not trying to step in, id like to try to guide the SPL, but i think the ASPL needs replaced, as do others.