Time to start a new troop?

[scout_momx2]

Our large troop (40-50 members) has severe problems--controlling Scoutmaster, boring program (ex: entire meetings devoted to Scout Jeopardy; infrequent high adventure; poor planning), lots of "paper" members, non-functioning patrols, adult-controlled (Scoutmaster chose this year's high adventure trip & only 2 kids signed up), approx 80% loss of new recruits, too few active adults, older guys rarely attend, new guys don't attend summer camp, SM refuses to consider a Venture Patrol, and more.

I just attended Philmont's "Creating Strong Scout Troops" and learned just how severe these problems are. I'd hoped to bring ideas back to our SM and Committee (4 of us show up; 3 are Eagle parents ready to step down, and new parents aren't joining), but other participants got me to realize that because I'm the only adult who seems to recognize any problems (we're relatively new to the troop), chances are slight that any changes will be made any time soon. Several suggested that I start a new troop. (Got lots of valuable ideas from people who'd started a troop.)

My own kids (both Life, just a badge or two and a project away from Eagle) are bored to the point where they've visited other area troops, none of which has a Venture program. However, they're so "close" that they don't want to leave even though they don't have many friends in the troop, are disappointed in the program, and don't participate much any more.

I'm considering starting a new troop. As Advancement Chair, I know there are a lot of disaffected boys and parents in our troop, so they'd probably jump at the chance to start something new.

I don't want to hasten our troop's demise, yet these kids deserve a quality program. Would greatly appreciate any advice!

[riverwalk]

I'm still having puter troubles, and lost another reply somewhere, haha.

I'll try a short one and see what gives! If you've already asked at all your District meetings, what can be done, then get another started. Save the ones that are still interested I say, if working from within isn't being received well.

[ASM-142]

Our large troop (40-50 members) has severe problems--controlling Scoutmaster, boring program (ex: entire meetings devoted to Scout Jeopardy; infrequent high adventure; poor planning), lots of "paper" members, non-functioning patrols, adult-controlled (Scoutmaster chose this year's high adventure trip & only 2 kids signed up), approx 80% loss of new recruits, too few active adults, older guys rarely attend, new guys don't attend summer camp, SM refuses to consider a Venture Patrol, and more.

I just attended Philmont's "Creating Strong Scout Troops" and learned just how severe these problems are. I'd hoped to bring ideas back to our SM and Committee (4 of us show up; 3 are Eagle parents ready to step down, and new parents aren't joining), but other participants got me to realize that because I'm the only adult who seems to recognize any problems (we're relatively new to the troop), chances are slight that any changes will be made any time soon. Several suggested that I start a new troop. (Got lots of valuable ideas from people who'd started a troop.)

My own kids (both Life, just a badge or two and a project away from Eagle) are bored to the point where they've visited other area troops, none of which has a Venture program. However, they're so "close" that they don't want to leave even though they don't have many friends in the troop, are disappointed in the program, and don't participate much any more.

I'm considering starting a new troop. As Advancement Chair, I know there are a lot of disaffected boys and parents in our troop, so they'd probably jump at the chance to start something new.

I don't want to hasten our troop's demise, yet these kids deserve a quality program. Would greatly appreciate any advice!

You state that the troop is controlled by the SM. What does the PLC think about this? Has this issue ever been brought up to the committee?

[wagionvigil]

I have never been an avocate of large troops. The troop I had always stayed around 12-20 kids which was a very managable number. The large troops that I have seen that work well are those that are strictly by the book and they do operate the way they are supposed to. This troop copuld make a turn around with new leadership but I see little changing if the leadership does not change. You need to involve the commissioner staff on this. Thats what they are there for.

[WVBeaver05]

I would tend to think that the problem is the way the unit is being run rather than the size. I just returned from camp where I spent some time with a very large Troop. As I recall they have 48 Scouts and 38 of them were at summer camp. They had 8 leaders at camp including several Committee Members. I have been associated with several of the leaders over the last couple years, but this is the first time I had seen the Troop. They are a very active Troop. So, it can be done.

I have heard that much larger than this really needs to be split into two Troops, but that is a hard decision and a hard process.

I have to agree with wagionvigil that it is time to get the Unit Commissioner involved. It also looks like you need more adult involvement. I'm thinking that for a Troop that large there should be 6-8 adults present for a meeting to assist. The Committee should consist of at least that many active.

Another thought is to look at the level of training of your adults. Without training they may think that things are working correctly. I'm a REALLY BIG proponent of BSA training. Attending and getting other adults to attend your District Roundtable is another idea to raise the skill level (and hopefully enthusiasm as well).

I hate to recommend taking boys and starting a new unit, but it could come to that.

Hope it works out well for you and WELCOME to the forum. Make sure you come back often -- there is a wealth of knowledge and information here.

YiS

[616kayak]

When you have a large group of people they feel less responsible for what is going on around them. It’s as if the responsibility is divided amongst them. This can be seen all over the place. For example, if some one gets in a car accident on a busy street most people will drive away. If this happens when there is only one other car present the person will be more likely to help.

This is what I believe is happening with your troop. The other adults feel less responsible for the troop because there are so many others. In my troop we have about 17 scouts not all active and 8-10 active parents. Your willingness to do this may seem normal to you but, it shows leadership generosity and good character.

I agree the troop needs new leadership. To do this you must help parents feel more responsible for the condition the troop is in. You will need to be careful not to accuse them of the condition. Help them see that they can make a difference in the troop, and that their difference is needed.

If the parents just don’t care and are looking for some one to take their kids of their hands then I would start a new troop and bring those that do.

[Lynda J]

I agree with Wagion. Our troop has been as large as 22 and down to 14.
I have known troops that are 50-85. What I have seen is that boys that are not very outgoing seem to get lost in the crowd.
I saw one troop where the SM didn't know the names or rank of half the boys in the troop. Sorry but that isn't the type of troop I want to be associated with.

I like knowing what is going on with my boys. I like knowing them well enough to read them when something is wrong. And possibly being able to help them with the problem.

[Billiken]

The large troops that I have seen that work well are those that are strictly by the book and they do operate the way they are supposed to.

We've got a 70+ member troop in my district. They, like Wagion said, run strictly by the book, including separate patrol meetings (not part of normal troop meetings). It is an EXTREMELY organized boy-led "operation".

There are two other troops in this suburb of Cleveland, both with less than 20 boys each.

Are big troops big because they are boy-led/patrol method?

We've got a lot of troops in my district that are, frankly, just patrols.

How do boys get meaningful leadership experience when there's only a few other scouts (no REAL SPL position)?

[scout_momx2]

Thanks for all the advice! I feel that the troop's "decline" has been gradual but prolonged. It certainly isn't the fault of our current SM! He just happens to be someone who must direct and approve everything; that personality type, when combined with our ongoing problems, just isn't a good mix right now.

I have contacted our DE and DC. The DC will be visiting our July troop committee meeting to suggest that that we initiate a 1-year planning cycle. (Right now, the PLC meets to plan a 3-month program, and that was difficult to get the SM to agree to.) Unfortunately, I'm also the troop's UC, so that puts me in a difficult situation. (I hold multiple roles--UC x3, Acting District Commissioner, Advancement Chair, MB counselor, Recruiting Chair, Webmaster, and so on.)

Yes, I have met with our new SPL; unfortunately, he didn't really want the job and was elected because no one else stepped forward. He recognizes our challenges and wants to plan a troop-wide meeting to address some issues, specifically reorganizing patrols and long-term planning. Our SM doesn't like the idea, though.

Our Committee Chair doesn't share my concerns, and he's understandably reluctant to alienate our SM. In his latest email, he suggested that I highlight a point or two, write a report, and present it at an upcoming Troop Committee meeting. (I've done that for other issues and have found that the reports are somehow never gotten around to, so I'm not hopeful.)

I have a lot of ideas that I'd like to share with the troop and its leadership, but I've got to be very careful not to alienate people. As the troop's first (and only) active mom, I'm aware that 2-3 of the male ASMs might balk at change simply because I'm the one to propose them.

Regarding the size of our district's 24 troops, they range from 8 to 100+. Some are boy-led; others are marginally boy-led; the bulk are run by adults. There are 5 troops in our suburb; we're in the middle size-wise.

Few of our leaders are trained; most resist because of time and/or money. Our ASMs rarely attend meetings, usually doing so only if specifically asked. Our MB chair and Camping chair just stepped down, and no one has volunteered to do those jobs. I'm doing more district/council work (organizing Canadian Jambo unit and fall Scout Expo), so I can't take them on.

What do you suggest I concentrate on? Thanks a lot, everyone!

[deweylure]

I have felt the same way at times with the SM of our troop. He does not go on many outings and recently did not attend meetings and drops the ball when it comes to organization especially if he did not think of the idea.

I am very stubborn and will not let our troop go under . We have at least 4 ASM with over 50 plus years in scouting. We are working around him since I think he is retiring soon. The PLC was going then quashed it will start again.

dewey

[scout_momx2]

I just learned that our SM is making noises about stepping down, but not until winter. His son has practically quit Scouts, but he wants to remain involved with the Troop. We've identified 3 individuals who might be interested in becoming SM, but Troop Committee members are nervous about approaching them. A popular former SM who no longer has any family in the Troop will come back if he's asked.

This is all very interesting, but in the meantime, we have kids who want to quit Scouts. If we wait too long to make changes, we'll lose even more members or risk creating more "submarine Scouts."

[wagionvigil]

BSA needs to require all registered adults to be trained. Now is the time and it must be done. Your troop can require it even though it is not a National Policy. Many Chartering organizations are requiring it for their units.

[WeeWillie]

Scout Mom X 2

Why is your SM sticking around until Winter? Are you sure he really still wants to be a SM? You might find out that he is sticking around because nobody else appears to be willing to step up and become SM. It sounds that he is just going through the motions.

How long has he been SM?

Is there some skill or function that he does well that he could assume if he stepped down.

Is he eligible for the SM Key or some other SM award?

Do you definitely have someone in mind who is willing to commit 2-3 years to your Troop?

Give him a graceful way to leave, a pat on the back and willing replacement and he might step down.

Oh by the way, what is his wife's status? I've heard an old adage that there is no such thing as a burned out Scoutmaster, but there are plenty of burnt out Scoutmaster wives. Don't forget her when it comes to awards.

[WVBeaver05]

BSA needs to require all registered adults to be trained. Now is the time and it must be done. Your troop can require it even though it is not a National Policy. Many Chartering organizations are requiring it for their units.

I agree!! Some Councils are making training a requirement for rechartering (being phased in).

Being an Eagle Scout in my youth, then being out of Scouts for several years, I was somewhat confused about he training that was offered, but took it anyway. I was so impressed that I have been voluteering as a trainer for over a year. I have found that the training is well organized and very relavent (not perfect, but good). I have also become a proponent (some say a fanatic) about training.

Let me close with a quote that I have heard (read) -- "Every Scout deserves a trained leader"
YiS

[scout_momx2]

Our SM is highly trained--he just joined our district training committee! It's a real disconnect. "It's a case of do what I say, not what I do" because we have patrols in name only, very few adults are trained, and we two are the only ones from the troop who attend Roundtables. Hm.

Regarding his wife, no, she's not involved at all except with regard to fundraisers. Their younger son has never been a Scout and their elder son is rebelling because his dad, as SM, "forced" him to attend every event so now he refuses to do anything but go on high adventure trips and attend Eagle ceremonies.

The wife has expressed frustration (anger?) with Scouting. His continued involvement has definitely affected their marriage and family life. (Our SM wouldn't be the first parent to use Scouting as a way to avoid turmoil at home!) She doesn't attend meetings or COHs, and the Troop hasn't traditionally issued certificates or awards, so presenting her with a Scouting Spouse award could be awkward.

I find all this very unfortunate because I've attended multiple training sessions and really enjoyed the Philmont training course I took earlier this summer. While not perfect, BSA training really helps us adults get a good perspective of what the ideal Scouting program looks like.

[Billiken]

Being an Eagle Scout in my youth, then being out of Scouts for several years, I was somewhat confused about the training that was offered, but took it anyway. I was so impressed that I have been voluteering as a trainer for over a year. I have found that the training is well organized and very relavent (not perfect, but good). I have also become a proponent (some say a fanatic) about training.

I'm in a similar situation (Eagle Scout, both Northern Tier Canoe Bases, World Jamboree). However, I have found most of the training I have taken (except on-line YPT) to be remedial and boring.

As my brother (Eagle Scout too) once said, the BSA has the unique ability to turn 30 minutes of training material into a 3-hour class.

I had to take BALOO as a cub leader....how/where to pitch a tent, start a fire, fill out a tour permit, etc. Had to take archery/bb-gun range training also..trainer READ ALOUD to us from his book.

Just took Safe Swim and Safety Afloat at summer camp. Aquatics Director read/listed and briefly described the points of each. In/out in 20 minutes, I'm now certified for 2 years.

All of this said, I do believe, like WVBeaver05, that training is necessary.

I will eventually take Woodbadge and go to the NTC at Philmont.

[Mad Dog]

I don't believe it is training or the size of the troop. Our troop has 15 boys and our SM has taken all the leadership courses. But we still have many problems. Our SM is extremely controlling. He runs the troop and he runs the PLC. We are a boy led troup in name only. The boys have to do what the SM wants to do, trips, camp etc. He can manipulate the SPL and the PLC to do what he wants. It is very frustrating for the boys as well as the ASMs.

[scout_momx2]

"Our SM is extremely controlling. He runs the troop and he runs the PLC. We are a boy led troup in name only. The boys have to do what the SM wants to do, trips, camp etc."

Seems like you've visited our troop! What are your members doing about the SM situation?

Personally, I'm frustrated/angry that we have to wait until winter for our leadership to change. Chances are really good that we'll lose several more members (new recruits) before then.

[WVBeaver05]

I will eventually take Woodbadge and go to the NTC at Philmont.

Billiken - Don't put it off - just go ahead and take Wood Badge! I have yet to meet anyone who wasn't glad that they had. If it isn't offered at a convenient time in your Council, look into nearby Councils (although there is much to be said for taking it with people from your own Council).

If you have questions/comments, let's move this to the Training forum.

YiS

[Caggy]

What do you suggest I concentrate on? - Scoutmom

If you are determined to build a quality program perhaps the most direct approach is to assemble a cadre of devoted, like minded folks and launch a totally new effort.

If the Committee Chairman isn't interested, if the ASM's aren't interested, if the SM isn't interested either there is a massive dysfunction or you are on the wrong track. I have to ask myself when I am a 'voice in the wilderness' if perhaps my isolation isn't self-imposed. Sometimes I have found that this is indeed the case. An honest assessment of the situation requires that you carefully and dispassionately examine your aims and methods before proceeding, perhaps with a trusted friend who possesses the frankness to tell you if you are wrong. It is difficult to impose impartiality on ourselves. If your own children are involved it is doubly difficult.

If the troop has degraded to the point where the only solution is replacing the Scoutmaster or other key personnel it is probably going to be unpleasant and extremely disrupting. I would only undertake this if there is general consensus after carefully considering all the issues.

Troops are like families, they have personalities and practices that some find difficult to understand or accept. Joining a Troop is something like getting married and having Christmas with your in laws. It may be that they open all the presents on Christmas Eve when your family waited till Christmas morning; there is no right and wrong way- just family tradition. In the end all the presents get opened.

We may find the traditions and practices of some Scout Troops discordant with the way we see things, but they get the job done. Some Scouters believe that theirs is the only way and become tiresomely evangelical. Truth is that there are many different ways to achieve the aims of scouting in some measure. I observed hundreds of Troops as a camp director and came to realize that few of us will ever see an ideal expression of the program. We will see lots of boys experiencing the rewards of Scouting even when imperfectly delivered.

Talking to the older Scouts in the Troop does not always result in an accurate picture of the Troop's success. Some boys in their late teens may be habitually hypercritical of their parents, teachers, coaches, and Scout leaders. They may become jaded or dissatisfied simply as a function of their age and quest for maturity.

Calling in the District can be seen by some as tantamount to calling the police or Child Protective Services - a serious measure undertaken only when there is clear evidence that dysfunction is threatening the welfare of family members.

Some years ago when we were at an impasse with our Committee Chairman the asm's and I decided that we would start a new troop. This attracted the attention of our chartered partner, commissioners, and district personnel who soon sent the CC packing. It was difficult, personal, disruptive and unpleasant but resulted in a happier more effective Troop.

As for training being the silver bullet: sometimes it is. While it is certainly recommended it is not a panacea for every ill. One cannot polish a pile of soil, one can only smooth it out a bit. I am dismayed to conclude that some folks 'get it' and some folks don't including some very experienced trainers as well as their trainees.

As for big Troops; our Council has the highest percentage of large troops in the nation (I believe that means forty or more scouts) and they function as well as any. My troop is on the small side for our council (35-45 boys on average).