"Boy Run" As Excuse to Avoid Planning?

[Knot Blackhawk]

Does anyone have the problem where "Boy run" is used as an excuse to avoid work or to procrastinate or to avoid planning? To avoid inviting Webelos to Troop activities? To avoid planning monthly activites, or service projects, etc? At what point does "Boy run" become a suicide pact for the Troop?

[wagionvigil]

Boy Run But with ADult ADvisors. You never set them up to fail. There is a point when the Adults Must step in and give advice.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

When the troop folds?

Sorry, just kidding, I couldn't help it.

Your note is rather vague as to what the problem is? Sounds like mis-communication between the committee, scouts and ASM, SM? Adults should be helping the boys plan monthly activities but the boys should also be wanting to plan this and participate. Just don't have enough info to have much imput right now.

[Knot Blackhawk]

What if they don't want to plan, desiring to wing it instead?

[wagionvigil]

That would not be an option.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

At least not a very good option.

Sounds like some new folks need to step up. Start with training and recruiting others to get trained and then go for it, jump in.

[cballman]

poor planning by some people does not make it an emergancy on my part.


now lets not set up a group of kids to fail but let them know that plans might get delayed a little bit because of poor planning. an example if a campout is scheduled for a weekend and no planning is done the wing it with them up until the point of departure. wow no adults can go what do you do now? no tour permit sorry we cant leave the church. but when you do this let them know what goes into a campout and then explain what will happen if something went wrong who would find them and where would they find them . just a few examples of teaching the youth about planning.

[Knot Blackhawk]

Good suggestions all. I think that most work well on the Patrol level, but it is more challenging at the Troop level.
Suppose at the Troop level the Scouts have elected someone to SPL who procrastinates and skimps on planning using "Boy run" as an excuse to justify skimpy plans and a shifting calendar as things don't happen due to a lack of planning. It can be a long year and the effects are felt throughout the Troop. If the following years, Troop Program Plan is also delayed and not well thought out, it can also affect recruiting new scouts, the conduct of elections, etc. having a long term effect on the Troop.
So, two questions.
1. What methods work best to get across to the SPL the desirability of timely and more complete planning.
2. What can be done to minimize the impact on the Patrols especially New Scout Patrols?

[commish3]

We need to stop using the term "boy-run". The term used in scouting is "boy-led", meetings and activities are "boy-led", the program is adult-led"

Boy-led does not mean adult abdication. Nor does it mean we toss boys into responsibilities before they have been trained and given practice in it like any other skill.

[TCC7]

Cedric,
It seems the biggest challenge you have right now is the SPL.

Questions:
How long has he been the SPL?
Has he been trained?
Is your troop a fairly new troop?
Was the SPL elected on popularity?
Did he have an older scout SPL as an example before him?

Answer some of these questions and we can be of more help.

[Knot Blackhawk]

Commish3,
I agree that "Boy led" is the correct terminology.
You state: "... meetings and activities are "boy-led", the program is adult-led". Can you point me to any "official" BSA literature that makes this point? It could be helpful.
The Troop Program Planning area seems to have elements of "boy led" in that the PLC votes on campouts and activities although the Plan is to be approved by the Adult Committee as I understand it. The Troop Program Planning video, which is no longer available from BSA (Q - Why?), seems to endorse the notion that a Scoutmaster prepare a draft plan for the SPL to work from making changes as the PLC decides upon its interests. The adult led: boy led interface is one that I assume shifts somewhat depending upon the abilities of the boys. The challege for which I am seeking suggestions is where boy led equals a program that coasts along with no energy being directed to recruitment, or other activities that build up the troop and where the needed planning to achieve even the same level of opportunities isn't happening. This can create a downward spiral.

[Knot Blackhawk]

Questions:
How long has he been the SPL? Closing in on end of one year term.
Has he been trained? Yes, but did not attend Troop Program Planning Training.
Is your troop a fairly new troop? No, but about 3-4 years ago, it was less "Boy Led". A BIG emphasis was placed on boy led to overcome tendencies for adults to do too much. Now I am seeing "boy led" being fed back to adults as an excuse for doing or not doing things in a way that reduces opportunities.
Was the SPL elected on popularity? In a way. The demographics of the troop was such that about a third were very young, a third turning 18 during the year and a third in the middle leaning towards the young side.
Did he have an older scout SPL as an example before him? Yes, but the prior two SPLs were young; all three were 14 when elected.

[Lynda J]

Boy run is what it is all about. Are the boys always going to plan perfectly NO.
But by making mistakes they will learn about better planning. If we are never allowed to fail or make mistakes then we can never learn about losing. The kid that always wins doesn't truly understand the joy of winning. You have to lose sometimes to really appreciate what it means to win. You have to make mistakes to truly understand what it takes to make a good plan. Failure is part of learning and growing. You never tie a perfect square knot the first time you try. You have to practive. Good planning on the boys part takes practice.
Our SM and I oversee the boys planning. We will find ideas of activities coming up and give them to the SPL at least a week before our PLC meeting. He has time to go over them. He then presents them to the PLC and they decide if they want to do them or not. THere have been times that I gave them something I really wanted them to do but they voted not to do it. Was I disappointed yes. Did I make an issue of them not doing it NO. There are times that we will tell them that this or that is something that we really need to do. And they normally take our suggestion.

[OldGreyBear]

Did the SPL get a job description when he assumed his position? Yes the troop is boy run/led. but the scoutmaster evaluates the SPL on his performance and coaches him on weaknesses, praises strengths and maps out a plan to help the SPL grow in his position. If the SPL does not follow the plan the scoutmaster has laid out, and this fact has been discussed with the SPL and no improvement or attempt at improvement is made, then its time to fire the SPL. There is no reason to let one youth mess with the program of the other scouts.

All positions of responsibilty should have a job description and this is given the day the position is assigned. The JD is reviewed with the scout to be sure he understands his duties and periodic monitoring and feed back is done to let the scout know where he can do better and what he does great. If the job isnt getting done, get a new one.

Its harsh, but what are you teaching the SPL or the troop, that sloth is ok? That getting signed off on a POR is just a matter of time? Set expectations, monitor them and praise when things are well, work with the scout when not and dont be afraid to change SPL's if its in the besr interest of the troop

[commish3]

Knot Blackhawk, The best reference I can point you to is New Leader Essentials and Scoutmaster Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. The adult basic training courses of troop scouting

Thta's pretty much what they are trying to explain. The Scouting program is an education system with specific methods under adult leadership. Different programs have different methods and different levels of adult dependency.

[Knot Blackhawk]

Old Grey Bear,
"Did the SPL get a job description when he assumed his position?"
As a matter of fact he did and he and the prior SPL opposed use of the Job Descriptions saying they were unnecessary and saying "Boy led" as a justification. We rejected that, but you can see we have a challenge in getting through the nuance between "Boy led" and the adults role.
I think it was Commish who said boy led meetings and activities but adult led program. i don't think it is that clear cut either. We do need to let a boy enjoy the consequences of his own actions/inactions, but the detrimental effect upon the troop needs to be balanced by adult intervention to prevent the troop from collapsing. My immediate concern is this years troop program plan which should have been completed last spring and wasn't; promised to be done at summer camp (bad idea in my opinion) and then notready for presentation to the committee at the committee meeting after summer camp. Finally it was worked on again at special meeting and issued at a recent Court of Honor with the SPL saying that the "Committee" had approved it. The SM is not a member of the committee, the SPLs dad is but I doubt that anyone else from the committee saw it prior to handout much less approve it. I do not consider it approved. It has dates for certain campouts but no locations e.g. for a September campout at which the Webelos are to be invited and also next year's summer camp. It also contains a repeat of an expensive cave campout that was on last years troop plan by virtue of the same cadre of leaders none of whom went on the campout last year although they had been vocal supporters of scheduling it. I'm not expecting too much to have a Troop Program with dates and places for campouts presented to the ecommittee and in place by now for new year (first regular meeting is in three weeks), am I?
I am going to reread that job description for SPL, may be it needs amendment.

[Chief J]

Lets not forget the SM is a member of the PLC and is to act as an advisor.

The PLC is the forum for planning. It is great to let the SPL run the show, but if he needs guidance, then the SM needs to be there to provide it.

Being Boy-led does not mean that adults do not abdicate and sit back. The purpose of the Troop committee is to assist in the planning and execution (i.e., transportatin chair is supposed to line up drivers, camping or outdoor chair is to file tour permits, secure campgrounds, etc.).

If the philosophy of the adults in your troop is to let the boys fail, you will not have a troop for very long. I have a fairly young troop, and the members of my PLC can be overwhelmed with the task at hand. This includes my SPL. I have found they have not yet discovered all the activities available to them. To accomodate this, as SM I try to bing ideas to the table and start the discussion. Usually after they start talking, they begin to formulate their own ideas about what they want to see happening.

However, once they set a course of action, as adults, we try to assist to ensure the finished product is polished and the event does not flop.

Another valuable tool is to do After Action Reviews (AAR) immediately after the event/meeting. I believe the Boy Scouts calls these reflections. This is where you sit down with the PLC and talk about what went well, what went poorly, and what to do in the future if we do this event again.

Chief J

[Lynda J]

We had elections last night and have a new group of PLs. The first PLC meeting we have both the incoming and outgoing PL there. At that time the outgoing officially turn over the reins to the incoming. It also allow the outgoing to finalize any unfinished business they were working on.
And to let the incoming leaders know what had been discussed before.

It seems to be working well.

[mhjacobson]

Actually the way a troop runs is a combination of "boy run" and "adult led"

The best example is the Troop Planning conference. The first step is the development of a master calendar by the scoutmaster, then the SM is to confer with the SPL on the school calendars, etc. The next step is for the development of the troop activities list, etc. Note tha the SM is part of the process from start to finish as the leader, who has the role of starting the process and monitoring the process from the start to the finish. However, it is the SPL and the TLC who run the process under the 'guidance' of the leader.

Thus the concept of adult led and boy run. Boy run is never a reason for a poorly functioning troop. If the troop is poorly functioning, it is most often an adult leader problem, not a boy leader problem. By the way, the most often cited reason why boy run does not work is due to the failure of the adults to hold training for the youth leaders at the troop level immediately following the election and appointment of the TLC!