Scount Account funds

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Scount Account funds

Postby Quailman » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:46 am

I searched and could not find this topic discussed in another thread so I am starting a new one.

When boys participate in fundraisers, the custom with troops in our area is to give them credit in their "scout account" for a portion of the proceeds. This can later be applied towards fees for summer campor other activities, or even equipment or uniform items at the scout shop.

A couple of boys are transferring to our troop. These boys have been quite successful at fundraising and have balances of $40 and $300 respectively. They would like to transfer "their" money to our troop. The other troop has told them they cannot transfer it. The boys both moved within the area and find it impossible to make it to meetings at the other troop.

How would your troop handle this? Is it "their money" or does it belong to the troop? Personally, I'd recommend that if the troop allows for them to spend it at the scout shop, they go on a spending spree, but they'd rather save it for campout fees.

How would your troops handle this situation.
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Postby scubascout » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:50 am

Quilman, this is a tough one. Personally, if their former troop gave them an account and told them how much money was in their, they should give them their money. If they dont want to do that, maybe ask for the dues you paid last back.
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Postby ASM-142 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:54 am

The question should be asked of the chartering organization and not the Troop since the chartering organization owns all troop equipment and monetary funds.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby Mrw » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:58 am

Our troop policy is that you use it on scout stuff or camping with our troop or you lose it.

That being said, if one of our boys was transferring to a new troop because they had moved and could not make it to our meetings anymore as they were too far away, I think we could see fit to sent the money to the new troop if they also kept Scout dollar accounts" like ours. The other option is to have the boys pay for their camp fees with the new troop and send a receipt back to the old troop so they were assured the money was used for scouting and not the latest video game or whatever.

There is that extra layer of red tape, but maybe it will make everyone happy.
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Postby coneyraven » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:01 pm

Very simply put, if they earned it, they should be able to have it transferred to their new troop account....The thing that scares me is this.....just what if the former troop didn't actually have the cash on hand, for whatever reason, it got spent...perhaps for troop gear, or whatever.....either way, if a scout is supposed to be trustworthy, so should the troop as a whole.....the money should follow the scout through his scouting career....I'd be curious to find out why the old troop won't release the funds.
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Postby ASM-142 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:54 pm

coneyraven wrote:I'd be curious to find out why the old troop won't release the funds.


As I stated earlier it is not up to the Troop to release the funds but the Chartering Organization.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby jr56 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:51 pm

It has always been our troop policy that if a boy transfers to another unit, a check is cut to the new unit so the boy can transfer his troop funds to the new troop.
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Money

Postby riverwalk » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:37 pm

It's definitely a Troop Committee question, and may be their policy? So get it in front of the Committee. Anyone is encouraged to attend these meetings, and few non position people seem to do so.

One of our Units had parents asking about the Unit funds. We reminded them of the meetings they are always invited to, and they can hear/see the discussion. We also use this when one questions someting we're doing. We say, there are openings on the Committee (they must put up or shut up, haha).
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Re: Scount Account funds

Postby RWSmith » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:45 pm

Quailman wrote:When boys participate in fundraisers, the custom with troops in our area is to give them credit in their "scout account" for a portion of the proceeds. This can later be applied towards fees for summer campor other activities, or even equipment or uniform items at the scout shop.

A couple of boys are transferring to our troop. These boys have been quite successful at fundraising and have balances of $40 and $300 respectively. They would like to transfer "their" money to our troop. The other troop has told them they cannot transfer it. The boys both moved within the area and find it impossible to make it to meetings at the other troop.

How would your troop handle this? Is it "their money" or does it belong to the troop? Personally, I'd recommend that if the troop allows for them to spend it at the scout shop, they go on a spending spree, but they'd rather save it for campout fees.

How would your troops handle this situation.


If the amounts in question were credited on a "points", "matching-funds", or "group-share" basis, and not on a personally raised, dollar-for-dollar basis, then I'd let it go.

However, if the amounts in question were raised on a dollar-for-dollar basis (e.g., Boy 'A' personally raised $40 profit and Boy 'B' personally raised $300 profit that went into the Troop's account, then those boys are entitled to have that money transfered to the gaining Troop, with one exception... I see nothing wrong with a Troop stipulating, prior to a fund-raiser, that any profits earned during Scout fund-raisers, will be ear-marked for the Scout's use for future Scouting activities only, e.g. Summer Camp. That being said, it doesn't give the losing unit the right to refuse to transfer those funds to the gaining unit, unless the gaining Unit refuses to honor the original stipulation.

If you feel those boys are entitled to the funds they personally raised, this is how I'd go about it...

First, get the CC of the gaining Troop to make a polite phone call to the CC of the losing Troop--to inquire as to the actual status of the funds in question; and, if appropriate, to ask that the funds be transfered to the gaining Troop; and, if not, why not? If this fails, consider getting the COR of the losing Unit involved... explain the situation; ask for a reasonable decision, regardless of the Troop's policy. Ask him/her to do what's in the Scouts' best interest. (Remember, the COR wears two hats; he/she represents the unit -and- the District/Council). If that fails, get your UC/ADC involved... in the (somewhat likely) event you do not know who your UC/ADC is/are, contact your DC.

As noted in an earlier post (but, I'll detail it a little further here), a Troop does not own any of it's gear (not any of it... trailers, tents, chuck boxes, flags, coolers, cook kits, dutch ovens, money, whatever). ALL of the Troop's property, including "Troop" money, belongs to the CO. Period. Now, it is common practice to co-mingle and manage several Scouts' personal funds within the Troop's account. (If Grandpa gave the Troop $100 for Boy 'A' to go to Summer Camp, that money belongs to the boy, actually the boy's parents; but, not the Troop... even if it is in the Troop's account.)

If the money was earned by the Scout, and credited to the Scout, on a dollar-for-dollar basis, the COR (with the DC backing him/her) can advise the CC that cutting a check to the gaining Troop is the legally and morally correct thing to do... No Unit has the right to withhold funds belonging to a Scout simply because the money happens to be in the Troop's checking account. If the losing Unit gets nasty about it, then just tell them to cut a check to the Council in each boy's name, and then you can deal with the Council, e.g., Summer Camp, Philmont deposit, uniforms, whatever.
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Postby Nuts4Scouts » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:48 pm

I keep reading that the funds are the Scout's funds, that the money belongs to the Scout. This is simply not true.

The money was earned during a Troop fundraising campaign. The general public was told that if they purchase the product or service, from a member of Troop 123, they will be helping BSA Council ABC &/or BSA Troop 123. Nowhere was there anything stating that it was a money making event for little Johnny Doe.

Unless the money was given to the Troop to be specifically used on one boy, and only on that one boy, all money in the Troop bank account belongs to the Troop (& hence the CO), and can be used as the Troop (& it's CO) sees fit.

Most Troops will allow it's Scouts to use a portion of the Troop's funds, earned for the Troop by the Scouts, to pay for Troop activities (sometimes this can include personal equipment, but not always).

Some Troop's will allow a Scout to take any unused portion of his allocated amount with him to a new Troop & will send along a check payable to the new Troop, some will not & will require that the money stay with the Troop it was raised for.

I have never heard of a Troop that will make a check payable to a Scout or allow a boy to take "his" money if he leaves Scouting.

The Troop policies on these fund should all be spelled out to the families at the very beginning.

Quailman, it seems the troop these boys are coming from has the policy that it is strictly Troop money & it stays with the Troop. You can try giving the CC a call & see what options the boys have. Perhaps they can use the funds to pay for council summer camp.

However, it is strictly a Troop Committee/CO call. If the old Troop says no funds at all, then that is, most definitely, that.
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Postby RWSmith » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:52 pm

Nuts4Scouts really just emphasised what I failed to...

Here's what I think it boils down to... Regardless of a Troop's established written policy, monies a Troop holds concerning a Scout falls into one (or more) of three categories:

Troop Funds: Let's say that eight Scouts participate in a Troop Fundraiser by splitting shifts at the front door of the local hardware store, selling popcorn. Two or more adults provide TDL; but, the Scouts only stay part of the time, working in shifts. This is a Troop fundraiser. The profits made from this activity belong to the Troop. If the Troop wants to give "credit" to the participating Scouts, by whatever calculations, that money still belongs to the Troop. If a portion of these proceeds is credited to the "Scout's Account" -but- remains ear-marked as Troop funds, the Troop keeps the money if the Scout leaves.

Scout Funds: Father of Boy 'A' plops down a check written out to the Troop in the amount of two grand for him and son to get on the Troop's roster for next summer's trip to Sea Base. The Troop does NOT own this money just because they put in the Troop's savings account. However, if Papa gets transfered (or whatever) and has to back out, he's entitled to the balance he paid less any non-refundable deposits. If he backs out at the last minute, and the Troop can't recover the cost of the Air Fare, by getting a back-up in place, or whatever, Papa's in the hole for $1,200, or whatever.

Troop/Scout Funds: Here's where the grey area comes in... Now, let's say that, in addition to the hardware store situation mentioned above, some Scouts are allowed/encouraged to also (individually) sell popcorn (provided by the Troop) door-to-door; each Scout is with one of his parents; the Scouts are supposed to be in uniform; but, there's no TDL... and, more importantly, it's NOT a Troop "activity". Further, the Troop promises the boys that all profits they bring in from their individual efforts belong to them, but will be restricted to funding their personal costs of future Scouting activities, i.e. Summer Camp, Philmont, etc. If this promise is made, but the Troop choses to see this money as the Troop's and refuses to let the boy take it with him to another Troop... I say that's wrong, esp. if the Troop promised it would ear-mark "Scout Account" funds that they (the Scouts) earned individually. Why? While it may have been part of a Troop fund-raiser, it was earned individually, and not as part of a Troop "activity", and the Troop said it would treat such "individual" earnings as Scout Funds. Lastly, if the Troop tells the boys --up front-- that whatever they earn "individually" still belongs to Troop, then I'd let it go. [But then, where's the incentive in that?]
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Postby Nuts4Scouts » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:01 am

Now, let's say that, in addition to the hardware store situation mentioned above, some Scouts are allowed/encouraged to also (individually) sell popcorn (provided by the Troop) door-to-door; each Scout is with one of his parents; the Scouts are supposed to be in uniform; but, there's no TDL... and, more importantly, it's NOT a Troop "activity".


Yes, this is a bit gray. However, I would stipulate that the boy is required to tell any of his customers that the popcorn (or whatever) he is selling is for his benefit & profit ONLY.
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Postby Mrw » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:59 am

Nuts4Scouts wrote:
Now, let's say that, in addition to the hardware store situation mentioned above, some Scouts are allowed/encouraged to also (individually) sell popcorn (provided by the Troop) door-to-door; each Scout is with one of his parents; the Scouts are supposed to be in uniform; but, there's no TDL... and, more importantly, it's NOT a Troop "activity".


Yes, this is a bit gray. However, I would stipulate that the boy is required to tell any of his customers that the popcorn (or whatever) he is selling is for his benefit & profit ONLY.


If they are selling scout popcorn, part of the profit from this goes direct to the council to support scouting and part goes to the troop to be used as it wishes. If the troop chooses to use this money as "scout dollars" for the boy that sells it, that is entirely their choice to be subsidizing his scouting experience.

There should be no reason to have the boy tell each customer that the money will be just for his benefit. Some of our boys have put those "scout dollars" to good use in gaining equipment or paying for the camp and program fees that would otherwise preclude their full participation in the porgram. This is a great benefit to the troop since it keeps them involved and keeps the troop healthy.
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Postby vpalango » Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:46 pm

There are alot of grey areas here. I can only say what has worked in the "real world" within our unit.

Every year our troop runs a Christmas Wreath sale, with a combination of a stand to sell the wreaths and door to door sales. We tell the scouts that for thier door to door sales, they get $x in thier scout account (this is roughly 50% of the profit from the sale, the rest goes to troop funds). We let the scout know that he may use this money for scouting activities only (summer camp, monthly dues, equipment, patrol food budget, etc..).

We tell the scouts that this money reverts to the troop if they leave scouting. We have never had a scout leave to go to another troop, but we'd probably handle this situation as a one-off at the troop committee, and I'd expect, if the boy intends to continue scouting, that we'd give him his account in a check made out to the other troop (if the new troop even does scout accounts), or to the parents of the scout if the other option is not available.

Ideally, this is not a frequent issue (we haven't had to face it yet), and within our troop, we do not consider that money the "troop's". It's in the bank account, but our treasurer tracks the funds (with the Scribe who is the boy leader who handles the requests) and we do not spend that money as troop funds... Essentially we only count the remainder of the money as "available".

At the end of the day, all the money we raise is for the boys, so we shouldn't be withhoding the money from the boys without good reason.

Just my $.02
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Scout Accounts

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:43 pm

This issue got so bad in our council that one troop sued another for the scout account money of a scout who transferred to a new troop. The old troop said it was their money not the boy's. They lost.

This type of lunacy is what drives good people away from the program and keeps other from joining.
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue May 29, 2007 12:14 pm

Scout accounts are done many ways, but as far as the IRS is concerned it is illegal to have a kid raise money like popcorn sales and allocate his portion strictly for his use vice the troops use. I know a CPA that can quote you the IRS rule if you like.
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Postby Chief J » Thu May 31, 2007 8:39 am

I am a CPA and a Tax Geek, if you desire i can quote the Internal Revenue Code for you.

Bottom line when a scout raises money through fundraising, the funds are raised in the organizations name. How the funds will be used is also up to the organization to define.

At no time is any amount of money raised by a member of the group their funds. However if the Troop has a policy stating that the proceeds of the fundraiser will be held by the troop tro defray the cost of scouting for this member, then that would be an acceptable use.

Others are also correct, the funds belong to the Chartered Organization and not the Troop, and the ultimate disposition is up to them.

In my 8+ years as a Scouter, I have seen many arguments, hurt feelings, and some generally unpleasent situations when it comes to this area and my recomendation is:

If you are going to have scout accounts, then ensure there is a written policy that discusses what goes in the account, what the funds can be used for, and what the disposition of the funds will be if the scout leaves the unit or quits scouting. After the policy is written and agreed to by the Committee and the Chartering Organization, then live by it. If you have to make changes ensure there is a process to review and incorporate changes to this policy. Also communicate the policy to all involved, scouts, scouters, parents, etc.

If it is the Troops policy that troop funds do not transfer, they could ask the chartering organization to intervene, however that is where it ends.

Best of Luck with this sticky area,
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