Earning the Arrow of Light....

[ronin718]

While the discussion may have taken place at the start of the year, the 60% requirement STILL cannot be used to determine whether these boys earn the AoL, nor can you use any attendance issues. I guarantee you that any parent determined to have their son receive AoL and is familiar with the rules and requirements will win on this argument. I am one of those, and I've been there.

When I was the WebDL, I had two families do the same thing you're facing. The way you address this is to discuss with the parents EXACTLY what the requirements are, showing them in black and white, and not going with any den/pack-designed guidelines. You present a game plan to assist these boys down that path, including the parents in the planning process, and then you go forward. The youth are not required to cross at the Blue and Gold, even if this is the norm. As stated, if the boys are still only 10 y/o, they have to complete 5th grade. That gives them until the end of the school year or their 11th birthday, whichever comes first. That is the time remaining for them to work their plan.

Rules and requirements are your friend or your foe, depending which side of the fence you're on. They are the tools by which you can help a young man succeed, and they are the shield by which helicopter parents are parried. Learn how to wield them and you will be able to stand successfully against the tide. Set them aside at your risk. Adding to them only increases your burden.

[alex gregory]

As a den leader, I did my best to accommodate everyone’s busy schedule. I held den meetings and activities on various days, so all could attend the majority of our meetings. I know many of the scouts missed various practices in order to make scouting a priority. The Arrow of Light is the highest honor that a Boy Scout can earn. In today’s society where “everyone gets a trophy”, I feel that this honor should truly be earned. If it’s not, what lesson are we actually teaching our kids?

The Arrow of Light is not the highest honor a Boy Scout can earn. It's not even close to Eagle. In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka "Lighten up Francis." We are months away from this boy finishing 5th grade. Maybe your Pack/Den needs to slow down a bit and consider cross-over in March or April and give your kids a little more time to finish the AOL.

[smtroop168]

In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka "Lighten up Francis."

One of the all time great movie characters!

[Nuts4Scouts]

It has been our pack’s policy since before I was involved, that Webelos crossover in February, at our Blue and Gold Dinner.

Pack policy can be changed, or modified. Falling back on the "we have always done it this way" motto is never a good thing. While it is a good idea for boys to cross to Boy Scouts in the early Spring, it is not a set in stone National requirement.

After consulting with our committee and with the Scoutmaster, we all feel this scout will also drop from the program.

Wow, you decided this by yourselves did you.

While this might end up, in actual fact, being the case, what about the chance (however slim in your eyes) that he might really enjoy Boy Scouts, and flourish there? Now that you, your Pack, and the Scoutmaster, have all written him off, you have guaranteed that your version of his life is the one that will happen. How nice of you.

At the time, he only had 5 badges completed

If the Webelos has only completed 5 of the 8 Webelos Activity Badges needed, this entire conversation is moot, as he has not - yet - completed the requirements for AOL.

[Nuts4Scouts]

That gives them until the end of the school year or their 11th birthday, whichever comes first.

Actually, the National rule is a non-disabled Scout can stay in Cub Scouts until the end of the fifth grade, or he reaches 11.5 years old. Whichever is later, not first.

[Nuts4Scouts]

DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer. DYB does not count for requirements that are specific. A couple years ago at our winter swim a parent got in my face because her son did his best taking his swimmers test and should have been awarded his Red White and Blue even though he could only doggy paddle 50 yards and had no idea what a resting back stroke was. Have also had this issue with Climbing MB. "He did his best belaying". I don't think so!

The completion criteria of Do Your Best is for Cub Scouts, and their program requirements. It does not apply to things like a swimmers test, Boy Scouts, or Boy Scout merit badges.

BSA has set up Cub Scouts to be a flexible, family friendly program.

[wagionvigil]

DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer. DYB does not count for requirements that are specific. A couple years ago at our winter swim a parent got in my face because her son did his best taking his swimmers test and should have been awarded his Red White and Blue even though he could only doggy paddle 50 yards and had no idea what a resting back stroke was. Have also had this issue with Climbing MB. "He did his best belaying". I don't think so!

The completion criteria of Do Your Best is for Cub Scouts, and their program requirements. It does not apply things like a swimmers test, Boy Scouts, or Boy Scout merit badges.

BSA has set up Cub Scouts to be a flexible, family friendly program.

So I should have awarded the Webelos his swimmer Badge even though he did not meet the requirements BUt did his best?

[gmf228]

Alex- My apologies for mistyping one word. The Arrow of Light is the highest honor a Cub Scout can earn. That’s what this whole topic is about.

Our crossover happens in February because our Troop has determined the best way to get the new Boy Scouts ready for their activities is to get them in the troop in February. When I became CM three years ago, I urged our Pack Committee to review our policies to make sure we were serving our scouts and families the best we could. We have done this annually for the last three years.

The whole point is that this scout could have finished the requirements had he attended den meetings and our outdoor activities. I can write off the attendance portion, but the bottom line is the Outdoorsman requirements have not been completed. Without this badge, the whole point it moot.

Nuts4scouts- You are right, we shouldn’t be writing him off. But he has shown that he isn’t interested by not attending den and pack activities. Many different people have tried engaging him and the family, but they still don’t come to the activities.

Just because he doesn’t earn the Arrow of Light, doesn’t mean he will not be welcomed into the troop. He will cross over with the rest of the den if he chooses.

I’m not sure how he can stay in the pack, when there is no den for him to belong to. I suppose if he wanted to, he could join the Webelos 1 den, but the rest of the Webelos 2 den will be crossing over, at which time I will also be assuming new responsibilities with the Troop, as that is where my son will be.

The Cub Program is supposed to be a fun, family friendly program, but there are still requirements which need to be completed. As has been stated by others on this thread, changes to the advancement requirements cannot be made by any den leader, pack or council, so there is not a who lot of room for flexibility.

At this point, I have given them all ample opportunities to finish the needed requirements, and every scout knew when we would be crossing over and what needed to be done in order to earn the Arrow of Light. I don’t think there was much more I could have done. 6 of my 8 scouts will earn the Arrow of Light. Besides the scout I’ve been discussing, the other who will not earn the award did not want to do the Readyman.

[smtroop168]

Have the two boys that haven't completed the AOL expressed an interest in joining a troop? Are all 6 that have finished going to join?

[gmf228]

One of those not getting it has expressed some interest, the other has not. All 6 who have earned it are moving up.

[smtroop168]

Well you could have the bonehead who asked me if the SMC for AOL could be waived and give his son the AOL since he wasn't planning on joining BS so what would be the point!!!

Sit the 2 down with their parents (sitting in the back) and have one last DL conference with them and lay out what needs to be done by when and if they don't do it, move forward with the rest.

[Nuts4Scouts]

DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer. DYB does not count for requirements that are specific. A couple years ago at our winter swim a parent got in my face because her son did his best taking his swimmers test and should have been awarded his Red White and Blue even though he could only doggy paddle 50 yards and had no idea what a resting back stroke was. Have also had this issue with Climbing MB. "He did his best belaying". I don't think so!

So I should have awarded the Webelos his swimmer Badge even though he did not meet the requirements BUt did his best?

I am not sure if by "swimmer Badge" you are talking about a waterfront BSA swim test, the Webelos Aquanaut Activity Badge, Cub Scout Swimming Belt Loop, or some other badge specific to your council.

However, I never stated that requirements should not be completed, or that awards of any kind should be given even if those requirements have not been met. I also never said that you should shortcut, or ignore, safety requirements. Safe Swim Defense applies to Cub Scouts.

Do Your Best does not mean Don't Do Anything, or Do As Little As Possible. On Cub Scouts, and Do Your Best, from the Cub Scout Leader Book -

Doing your best is one of the most important things for the Cub Scout to learn. Boys often become so interested in winning that they fail to see the importance of doing the best they can at everything.

“Do Your Best” is the boys’ criterion for completing requirements, electives, or badges.

Measurement for satisfying requirements is “do your best,” and that level can be different for each boy.

One boy’s best might be quite different from another boy’s best.

A boy should not be compared with other boys in the pack but should be expected to do his best.

It is important not to measure a boy’s efforts by an adult’s yardstick, but to encourage him to do his best at all times.

[wagionvigil]

BSA swimmer test for Camp.

[cballman]

Held my tongue long enough. A few questions first. How can you say a boy did his best when he didnt even show up for meetings and campouts? Then I would ask the parents what would they do if they were in charge? Now a little reminder not everyone will earn the Arrow of Light, That is not a bad thing but then again you have to have the support of the child, the parent and you as the leader if any one of these three fail then its hard for the child to advance.

Now for the swimmers test. I have been giving the swim test for Boy Scouts getting ready for summer camp for about the last 8 years. Have I had to fail more than one person? Sure Does it hurt the person? At that time yes but I talk with the person and will work with them untill they are able to pass if they want to if they dont want any help then I will work with other children or other adults. When the parent ask why we make them pass or fail on this instead of doing their best I will explain that if we required only to do their best what would happen if we did the Lifeguards the same way? How many problems would we have in the water then if something happens? Nope, Sorry about your luck in the water we do it MY way or not in our troop. Nobody questions the old fart in charge of water activities. Until later in the year when MY son goes to North Carolina for Waterfront director camp. Man is that scary now.

Another little note about water safety in my family I am a Lifeguard, My Son is a Lifeguard, My Daughter is a Lifeguard, My wife can swim but well enough to be a Lifeguard and she is comfortable with that.

Sorry for the long rant but I just cant help myself sometimes.


Charlie

[FrankJ]

I have no idea if the specific cub did his best or not. I do not try to do that through the internet. That is for his Akela (sic) to determine. Might be different for different boys. Or the same boy at different times. That is a B-P idea by the way.

Swim test for summer camp is a safety standard. You have to enforce a minimum standard.. Comparing that to cub scout advancement is apple & oranges.

[wagionvigil]

Frank I brought that up because of what the Mom said That is It! She was upset because he did not pass and he did his best as she said and should have passed in her TYB train of thought. Parents need to be informed that when they get in Boy Scouts that you cna do your best all you want and not advance unless you do what is required.

[razor_strop]

So a requirement is a requirement, no matter if its for the Webelos Outdoorsman pin or potential BSA height/weight standards for adults, right (especially since a bodyfat standard is a safety issue)? If we expect our youth and their parents to adhere to and accept standards, we can't cry foul if BSA sets a standard that will require significant effort (not simply doing our best) to meet, else we don't get the reward--in this case, the ability to participate.

This isn't directed towards any one person, but rather is an important point IMO to contemplate else we start down the path of "leadership by directing" instead of by example, and in the worst case, outright hypocrisy.

[ronin718]

That gives them until the end of the school year or their 11th birthday, whichever comes first.

Actually, the National rule is a non-disabled Scout can stay in Cub Scouts until the end of the fifth grade, or he reaches 11.5 years old. Whichever is later, not first.

Duly noted. Thanks for the correction.

[FrankJ]

I hear ya Jerry: DYB doesn't mean you can just ignore the standards. Especially where the skill could be safety related.

Totally side tracking the original topic. A question for all you swimming & water type merit badge councilors. Swimming is pretty typically a first year merit badge. One the requirements is demonstrate CPR steps. A typical 11 year old (&quite a few 13s) do not have the weight to effectively do CPR. How do you fill about that. (I realize the requirement says demonstrate, not do or be certified.)

[lambeausam]

I hear ya Jerry: DYB doesn't mean you can just ignore the standards. Especially where the skill could be safety related.

Totally side tracking the original topic. A question for all you swimming & water type merit badge councilors. Swimming is pretty typically a first year merit badge. One the requirements is demonstrate CPR steps. A typical 11 year old (&quite a few 13s) do not have the weight to effectively do CPR. How do you fill about that. (I realize the requirement says demonstrate, not do or be certified.)

My 11yo is 63 pounds. Using the Resuci-Annie, he had to really use his full body weight to properly engage the compression. He also figured out that if he kneels on something, such as a jacket, textbook, etc., he is able to get "up and over" the victim.

Now that the new CPR standards emphasize compression first in many situations, the ability to competently execute compressions is highlighted.