webloes camping out w/the scout troop

[hacimsaalk]

tonight was our monthly committee meeting. since im now the SPL, i regularly attend. tonight, we had a cubmaster from a local pack there. we explained what campouts, activities, ect. the webloes were welcome on. a point came up, that if the webloes went, each one would have to have a parent, not just their den leader. i have heard in the past, that a den leader is good enough for this requirement ( the parent "transfers" guardianship to him/her). who has to be along? we want the webloes to be active with our troop, but we also want things to be kept within the guidelines.

thanks

micah

[Mrw]

Generally a parent should come with a cub or webelos on an overnight.

In some cases where a parent cannot or will not ever take the boy (sad, but it does happen) a den leader or other parent may step in. The den leader should not be bringing the whole den himself ever.

[FrankJ]

Direct from guide to safe scouting:

A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

I allways been told that pack leader can only be responsible for their own child since they have leadership duties to the whole den. I don't know if that is council policy or national.

[momma_bee]

And yet, it doesn't say "must be supervised by an adult who is only responsible for that Scout" nor does it say "DL / Pack Leaders and parents are required to attend"

So doesn't that mean a CM and DL could take a entire den to a troop camp out, if everyone else is in agreement?

Not all parents CAN camp out. Single parent, multi-aged kids is the first reason I thought of, followed by 'parent on night turn'. You can't turn those kids away.

[wagionvigil]

It is that BSA loop hole found in everything

[Mrw]

But a necessary loophole in this case.

I had a kid in cubs for 5 years who never once went on an overnight with the pack. I took him out for a couple all days when the pack went overnight, but his parents/step-parents wouldn't go and he had enough issues no one else wanted to take him. If he had been just a little better behaved, I would have had no problem taking him. And he was better for me at cubs than at home or school because no one else ever paid any individual attention. Very sad, but hopefully he will grow up remembering that someone was good to him as a kid.

[Chief J]

Here is the language from the G2SS:

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips"

YIS,
Chief J

[jr56]

The guide to safe scouting still doesn't really clarify anything. Does it mean that each Weblos scout must have an adult assigned to him? I heard once (heresay)? that 1 adult for every 3-4 Weblos was accetable.

[JazerNorth]

Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

From the AND seems that a parent must attend a Weblos camp out.

JazerNorth

[momma_bee]

expected, not required.

[JazerNorth]

expected, not required.

I'm sorry, but you asked.... well, not exaclty, but in your reply you indicated you needed a clarification.

See: http://www.answers.com/expected&r=67

Expected is Synonymous with required.

JazerNorth

[FrankJ]

I thiink the G2SS is reasonable in this case. It states the expectation & leaves it to qualified adult leadership to work out the details. If it covered every case it read read like a MIL spec. (very dull & nearly impossible to follow.)

[momma_bee]

Come on now, that is the 4th definition

1 To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of: expecting a telephone call; expects rain on Sunday.
2 To consider likely or certain: expect to see them soon. See Usage Note at anticipate.
3 To consider reasonable or due: We expect an apology.
4 To consider obligatory; require: The school expects its pupils to be on time.
Informal. To presume; suppose.

I think it bothers me becuase it feels like adding to the requirement. If you want to earn your AOL (I'm assuming Micah is planning this to meet the requirement) then you are REQUIRED to have a parent who can camp out with you.

[JazerNorth]

:D Come on now, that is the 4th definition

1 To look forward to the probable occurrence or appearance of: expecting a telephone call; expects rain on Sunday.
2 To consider likely or certain: expect to see them soon. See Usage Note at anticipate.
3 To consider reasonable or due: We expect an apology.
4 To consider obligatory; require: The school expects its pupils to be on time.
Informal. To presume; suppose.

I think it bothers me becuase it feels like adding to the requirement. If you want to earn your AOL (I'm assuming Micah is planning this to meet the requirement) then you are REQUIRED to have a parent who can camp out with you.

Yes, Yes, it is the 4th definition. See the example: If a pupil is late, they get a Tardy, which really means they are required to be on time. Why wouldn't the same be for Weblos parent's? I would say that the parent being in attendance for a camp out is far more important than having a pupil be on time to school. When I see expected, that means it must be done

That is all.

JazerNorth

[Mrw]

It, then, necessarily excludes a boy who doesn't have a parent able to go.?

Doesn't sound like that is the actual intent of the second sentence in the G2SS paragraph as quoted below.

"In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian."

[JazerNorth]

It, then, necessarily excludes a boy who doesn't have a parent able to go.?

Doesn't sound like that is the actual intent of the second sentence in the G2SS paragraph as quoted below.

"In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian."

Yes, still the same. As guardian, in legal terms, is the same as parent. So, every child either has a parent or guardian. Then whenever you see parent, you can know that it also means guardian. Therefore, if a parent is expected to attend and the child doesn't have a parent, then the guardian is the person expected to attend. Can guardians be assigned for one trip? Sure, that is where the parent-appointed, or guardian-appointed, can be the expected person attending the camp out.

It ain't as difficult as some are making it. Just know that the Weblos must have a parent, guardian, or assigned guardian, in attendance. OK - Really big and easy loop hole. The parent can assign the cub leader as the guardian.

JazerNorth

[momma_bee]

I see where this is going to go. The next question is...

Is there a limit to how many boys an adult supervises?

I have to say, I personally don't see it as a loophole, I think that is the intention of the Guide.

About the definition I was taught you use the FIRST definition unless it doesn't fit!

[riverwalk]

Hmmm, well there are some required ratios for the water activities. But as for the camping scenario, yep, they are to have an adult. Parent, guardian, concerned adult (Scouter), but something.

[cballman]

The way I was told a few years ago and it seemed to work fine. the den leader can only be there for his son since he has to be in charge of everything else. then another adult could accept responsiblity for their child and 2 others. then the tenting problem would arise because this person taking care of other children cannot sleep in the tent with any other children. so if a person takes 3 kids which one is their own there must be at least two tents. this worked for me and that is why I still teach this method. it might not be cast in stone or written but it is what I was taught when I was in cub scout leaders training.

[riverwalk]

Someone mentioned a ratio of 1:5. One activity in my District did actually say they must have at least this ratio. So even though my read says we're to have one for each, the local DD/DE may be a better local answer.