Earning the Arrow of Light....

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Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby gmf228 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:10 pm

As a CM and a Webelos 2 leader, I am facing a dilemma right now. 6 of my 8 scouts have finished all the requirements for the Arrow of Light. The parents of one of those who is not receiving it is upset because they feel their son has earned the award. At the beginning of Webelos 2, the den reviewed all the requirements to receive the AoL and understood them. The two not receiving the award have been to less than 60% of our meetings, which I told everyone was the minimum requirement. They are also behind in the Outdoorsman Pin, when we have had numerous outdoor activities, camping trips, etc, where these could have been completed, but the scouts either a) didn't attend, or b) chose not to particpate in the activities to finish the requirements (i.e., played cards instead of helping cook the meal).

Any thoughts???
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Re: EARNING THE ARROW OF LIGHT

Postby PaulSWolf » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:22 pm

gmf228 wrote:As a CM and a Webelos 2 leader, I am facing a dilemma right now. 6 of my 8 scouts have finished all the requirements for the Arrow of Light. The parents of one of those who is not receiving it is upset because they feel their son has earned the award. At the beginning of Webelos 2, the den reviewed all the requirements to receive the AoL and understood them. The two not receiving the award have been to less than 60% of our meetings, which I told everyone was the minimum requirement. ... Any thoughts???

If they haven't met the official requirements, then they are not entitled to the award until they do meet them.

BUT: There is no specific requirement for 60% attendance, and you, as the Webelos Den Leader, may not add such a requirement.

BSA has stated this:

BSA wrote:Definition of "ACTIVE"

A Scout will be considered "active" in his unit if he is:

  1. Registered in his unit (registration fees are current)
  2. Not dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons
  3. Engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (informed of unit activities through Scoutmaster conference or personal contact, etc.)
  4. In communication with the unit leader on a quarterly basis.

(Units may not create their own definition of active; this is a national standard.)
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:38 pm

And with that welcome to the Forum!
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby RWSmith » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:39 pm

See also...

Advancement Committee: Policies and Procedures, No. 33088 wrote:"No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement."

P.S. Welcome to the forums.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:03 pm

Congrats..you got the Trifecta of expertise (RW, Paul and Wagion) right out of the box

For Webelos: (Active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, working on den projects). This definition does not carry forward in the AOL requirements and of course "good" is not defined.

Is there a drop dead date for completing the requirements due to an impending Blue and Gold? Not all scouts have to finish the AOL at the same time. Most Den leaders prefer this so they can wrap up their tenure.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby FrankJ » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:01 pm

In cub scouts, the motto is do your best. If you have an reasonable expectation that they will continue in scouts, I would stretch the requirements as much as I could. Do remember this is an award for a 10 year old, not the Nobel Peace Prize. And no, we should not get into an discussion about that one.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:01 pm

The two not receiving the award have been to less than 60% of our meetings, which I told everyone was the minimum requirement.

You don't have the authority to designate a required percentage of attendance.

How many meetings have there been? How many have the boys attended?

They are also behind in the Outdoorsman Pin, when we have had numerous outdoor activities, camping trips, etc, where these could have been completed, but the scouts either a) didn't attend, or b) chose not to particpate in the activities to finish the requirements (i.e., played cards instead of helping cook the meal).

There are other options the boys can use to complete the Outdoorsman Activity Badge. Have you explained that to the boys? Why were they allowed to play cards instead of helping with the meal? You say the den has done numerous outdoor activities. Have these boys attended any?

Webelos are Cub Scouts.

The criteria for completion of activities as a Cub Scout is that they have Done Their Best.

That means the boys best, not yours.

You should be working with these boys, and their families, and not throwing up artificial roadblocks (60%, letting them play cards, not counting campouts they attend - really?). These boys have until the end of 5th grade, or they reach 11.5 years old, which ever comes last, to finish BSA's requirements for AOL.

Of course if you kick them out now, you will loose them to the Scouting program permanently. Why do you want to do that?
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby robclarkcsm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:44 pm

AOL Requirements from the book.

1. Be active in your den for atleast 6 months since completing the 4th grade (or since turning 10). Earn the Webelos badge.

2. Boy Scout knowledge: Scout Oath or Promise and 12 points of Scout Law (tell how you practice them in everyday life)
give and explain Scout motto, slogan, sign, salute, and handshake
Understand the significance and describe the parts of First Class Scout Badge
Explain the differences between Webelo uniform and Boy Scout uniform
Tie a square knot

3. earn 5 additional badges from what you needed for the Webelos badge
Fitness & Citizen (needed for Webelos Badge, Readyman, Outdoorsman, 1 from mental skill, 1 from Technology skill, 1 scouts choice.

4. 1 Troop visit & 1 Troop outdoor oriented activity (can not use the same items for outdoorsman to fulfill the AOL requirement

5. Participate in Webelos overnight campout or day hike (again can't use same activity for outdoor towards AOL)

6. After completing all 5, talk to den leader and schedual another Troop visit to be attended with p/g and have a conference with Scoutmaster.

7.Honesty Character Connection
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby robclarkcsm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:02 pm

As for Outdoorsman requirements:

1. Present yourself dressed for a campout. Show camping gear and explain how its used. Show the right way to pack and carry gear.

2. With family or Den help plan and partake in an outdoor activity that includes a campfire.

3. Take part with p/g in den or family campout. Sleep in tent you helped pitch.

4. With p/g camp overnight with a Troop. Again sleep in tent you helped pitch.

Those 4 are required. You need 5 of the following:

1. During den meeting discuss how to follow the LNT guidelines during outdoor activities

2.With Den or a Troop participate in a outdoor conservation project.

3. Discuss with Den Leader outdoor fire safety, show how to build and put out a fire.

4. With parent help prepare and clean up a dens meal during campout or outdoor activity. Discuss why it's important to take turns doing the work and eat together.

5. Discuss what to take on a hike with your Den Leader. Go on a 3 mile hike with the Den or Troop.

6. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse ends of a rope.

7. Demonstrate setting up a tent or dinning fly using 2 half hitches and a tat-line hitch. Show how to tie a square knot and explain how it's used.

8. Visit a Boy Scout Camp with your Webelos Den.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:14 pm

robclarkcsm wrote:As for Outdoorsman requirements:

1. Present yourself dressed for a campout. Show camping gear and explain how its used. Show the right way to pack and carry gear.

2. With family or Den help plan and partake in an outdoor activity that includes a campfire.

3. Take part with p/g in den or family campout. Sleep in tent you helped pitch.

4. With p/g camp overnight with a Troop. Again sleep in tent you helped pitch.

Those 4 are required. You need 5 of the following:

1. During den meeting discuss how to follow the LNT guidelines during outdoor activities

2.With Den or a Troop participate in a outdoor conservation project.

3. Discuss with Den Leader outdoor fire safety, show how to build and put out a fire.

4. With parent help prepare and clean up a dens meal during campout or outdoor activity. Discuss why it's important to take turns doing the work and eat together.

5. Discuss what to take on a hike with your Den Leader. Go on a 3 mile hike with the Den or Troop.

6. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse ends of a rope.

7. Demonstrate setting up a tent or dinning fly using 2 half hitches and a tat-line hitch. Show how to tie a square knot and explain how it's used.

8. Visit a Boy Scout Camp with your Webelos Den.


Actually you only need to do 2 of the 1st 4.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby robclarkcsm » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:21 pm

[quote="smtroop168"][quote="robclarkcsm"]As for Outdoorsman requirements:

1. Present yourself dressed for a campout. Show camping gear and explain how its used. Show the right way to pack and carry gear.

2. With family or Den help plan and partake in an outdoor activity that includes a campfire.

3. Take part with p/g in den or family campout. Sleep in tent you helped pitch.

4. With p/g camp overnight with a Troop. Again sleep in tent you helped pitch.

Those 4 are required. You need 5 of the following:

1. During den meeting discuss how to follow the LNT guidelines during outdoor activities

2.With Den or a Troop participate in a outdoor conservation project.

3. Discuss with Den Leader outdoor fire safety, show how to build and put out a fire.

4. With parent help prepare and clean up a dens meal during campout or outdoor activity. Discuss why it's important to take turns

According to the Book the first 4 are musts. Was there a recent change.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:33 pm

i looked at two sources...our site under the Outdoorsman requirements and on Paul Wolf's usscouts.org site....looks like it's been 2 of 4 since 1998

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/ch ... utdoorsman
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby lambeausam » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:58 am

If they have not completed the Outdoorsman pin, then they have not completed the requirements of AOL. That is not to say they don't have the opportunity to complete the requirements for both. For many 5th graders, earning the AOL is their ticket to early entry to a troop, typically in February/March. A 10yo cannot move up until he completes 5th grade OR completes AOL.

I agree with the posts regarding "Do your best," but feel it only applies to the requirements that were actually attempted. I would be hard-pressed to apply DYB to just showing up. It sounds like ample opportunity was provided.

So, where does that leave them now? The 11yo scouts can move to the troop now without the AOL if they choose. The 10yo scouts have to wait until the AOL requirements are complete or 5th grade is over. The boys that haven't completed the requirements and wish to do so should complete the requirements as soon as possible and be recognized at that time. I know the parents will still be upset that their scout is not receiving the AOL with the rest of the group, but from your information posted it appears that they were informed of the requirements at the first of the scout year.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:07 am

DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer. DYB does not count for requirements that are specific. A couple years ago at our winter swim a parent got in my face because her son did his best taking his swimmers test and should have been awarded his Red White and Blue even though he could only doggy paddle 50 yards and had no idea what a resting back stroke was. Have also had this issue with Climbing MB. "He did his best belaying". I don't think so!
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:06 am

wagionvigil wrote:DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer. DYB does not count for requirements that are specific. A couple years ago at our winter swim a parent got in my face because her son did his best taking his swimmers test and should have been awarded his Red White and Blue even though he could only doggy paddle 50 yards and had no idea what a resting back stroke was. Have also had this issue with Climbing MB. "He did his best belaying". I don't think so!


DYB...unfortunately can become an off shoot of the "Everybody Gets A Trophy" mentality.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby wagionvigil » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:13 am

YEP! But No Partials :lol:
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby FrankJ » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:36 am

DYB causes confusion or stupidty whichever you prefer.
The same could be said for dogmatic obedience to the written word & zero tolerance. :twisted: :)

And not I and not saying you should give partials for climbing or signing off when a standard is clearly not met.
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby smtroop168 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:03 pm

wagionvigil wrote:YEP! But No Partials :lol:



Just make sure you're using Blue Cards. :P
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby Bill Pitcher » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:17 pm

It's the "entitlement mentality' getting in the way of safety in the water or on the climbing wall. They need to be physically able to meet the requirements and not just DYB! Same with First Aid and CPR. Heck . . . we may depend on them some day! :D !
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Re: Earning the Arrow of Light....

Postby gmf228 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:36 pm

Thanks for all the responses. I’m glad to see so many people so passionate about scouting. I would like to address some of the responses.

Thanks for the definition of “Active” for boy scouts, but active is defined differently for Webelos as posted by smtroop168, and can be found in the Webelos handbook, although I would disagree that this doesn’t carry forward to the Arrow of Light. Since it is not defined for the Arrow of Light, and the only definition in the Webelos handbook is that for the Webelos Badge, wouldn’t a Webelos also think this would apply for the next award? It is worded the same for both Awards, located 14 pages apart in the scout’s Handbook, “be an active member of your den.”

At the beginning of the Webelos program, our den and parents talked about what “active” means. Since 60% is considered a passing grade in our school system, we all thought that was a good benchmark to achieve for attendance. All the scouts and families agreed to this. As a CM, I know that no leader can change or amend the requirements for any advancement. We, as a den, just wanted to clarify within the den what we all thought, and agreed to, was “good” attendance.

Since the beginning of the year, we have had 25 den meetings and outings. This scout has only been at 10. I even changed meeting times, at the request of the family, but he still didn’t show up. All the other scouts have attended at least 15, while most have attended at least 20 (two have been at 24). Phone calls and e-mails to the family resulted in promises that the scout would be in attendance at future meetings, promises which were unfulfilled.
Another part of the “active” definition for Webelos is to work on den projects”. We have had four projects this year that we have worked on. This scout has only worked on 1, while all the other scouts have done all 4.

Two months ago, the father and I talked and I explained to him that his son most likely would not earn the Arrow of Light unless he attended the majority of our remaining meetings, and completed the necessary requirements. At the time, he only had 5 badges completed, while the rest of the den had 12-15 completed. He expressed that his son had lost interest. Since then, he has been to less than half the den activities. Two days ago, the mother said her son wanted the Arrow, and practically demanded that I award it to him, even though he has not met the necessary requirements.

It has been our pack’s policy since before I was involved, that Webelos crossover in February, at our Blue and Gold Dinner. We are two weeks away, so time is critical. I gave a deadline of January 31 for all requirements to be completed, so arrows could be ordered and assembled in time for presentation at our B&G.

I was personally unable to attend the campout where the scout was playing cards, due to an emergency at work. The scout was accompanied by his father (this was a joint outing with our Troop). Both the scout and father knew what the requirements were, yet the scout chose to play cards instead of helping his fellow scouts. The Scoutmaster asked the scout to help, but he refused (the other Webelos on the trip prepared the meal). I know that cooking a meal is not mandatory, but this could have been done to fulfill the requirement.
We have had 8 camping opportunities since the den began the Webelos program where Outdoorsman requirements were worked on. He and his family chose not to attend any of these, except for the last trip. (The scout had camped on three of the four trips during Wolf and Bear years, so the family does camp). We also worked on and discussed various other parts of the Outdoorsman requirements at meetings, which the scout did not attend.

The Cub Scout Motto is “Do Your Best”. After working with this scout, and many others, since they were Tigers, I feel I know what their best is. This scout has not done his best this year, and has been far from it. This scout’s older brother went through the Cub program, but never participated in Boy Scouts. After consulting with our committee and with the Scoutmaster, we all feel this scout will also drop from the program. I have tried to get the scout to participate, but either he, or his family, is uninterested.

As a den leader, I did my best to accommodate everyone’s busy schedule. I held den meetings and activities on various days, so all could attend the majority of our meetings. I know many of the scouts missed various practices in order to make scouting a priority. The Arrow of Light is the highest honor that a Boy Scout can earn. In today’s society where “everyone gets a trophy”, I feel that this honor should truly be earned. If it’s not, what lesson are we actually teaching our kids?
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