Changing counselors

[optimist]

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wendas
Tenderfoot

Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 11
Location: NH
Posted: 02 Jul 2004 02:48 pm Post subject: Changing
counselors

For whatever reason, A scout must change counselors..

Example 1:
Counselor finds another counselor to replace him. But the
scout is not comfortable working with the new counselor. Does
he have any options?

New counselor agrees to replace old counselor, but becomes
aware that some items that were signed off by the old
counselor where either not done, or not done to where the
scout really understands. What should he do? If he agrees to
replace a counselor did he agree to accept all the scouts work
as is?

Example 2:
Scout looks for his own counselor and finds a few with
different ideas.

Counselor 1: will not except any work done previously must
start everything over. ex. if hiking and he has accomplished 2
hikes, the new counselor will not except them because they
were not with him.

Counselor 2: will except accomplished work but only after
discussing it with the boy and getting a good feel that he has
learned what he needs to from it.

Counselor 3: will not even ask questions, if signed off it is
completed no questions asked.

Obviously the Scout will choose Counselor 3. But, is counselor
3 really the best choice? Are all the counselors right, or are
any of them wrong? How do you weigh the counselors comfort
level with coming into a merit badge in the middle, with the
rights of the scout?

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steelgirl
Tenderfoot

Joined: 02 Jul 2004
Posts: 10
Location: North Carolina
Posted: 02 Jul 2004 06:39 pm Post subject: Changing Merit
Badge Counselors

Counselor 1. Regarding the example of a hike being taken but
not with that particular counselor. The counselor does not
participate in everything that a scout does to earn a badge.
For instance the 20 nights of camping can take a few years to
complete. Here is where troop records are really important. I
have created a form that each assistance scoutmaster fills out
after an event (hike, campout, community service), listing
event, miles hiked, nights camped, service performed, scouts
participated. This is then carefully recorded in our
troopmaster software. The hard copy is kept in the troop
filing cabinet by year in the scout room.

Counselors 2 and 3. We have a lot of discussion in our troop
re the 2nd and 3rd examples. Mostly, we feel that if a
qualified merit badge counselor signed off on the blue card
(or camp form), that a part of the merit badge was completed,
then it is so. However, if the scout says he did a project a
year before with a different counselor and it is NOT signed
off, and has very little knowledge of what he did, then the
new counselor does not have to accept that that was done.

What we find in the long run... the scouts who will be eagle,
will become eagle regardless. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Even if you feel that one merit badge may have a requirment
that was questionable, you don't need to feel that eagle will
be awarded to someone who didn't deserve it. We find most of
those types of boys just don't stay in scouting long.

However, you should also note that every merit badge has the
counselor having a discussion at the end with the scout
regarding what was learned. We don't make ours too long or
complicated, but this is the final check and the counselor
signing off as to feel comfortable.

By the way, it is also my understanding the if there is not a
particular merit badge counselor in the troop, (for instance a
badge that was started at summer camp with only one requirment
remaining), the scoutmaster can sign off on the merit badge.
Not an assistant scoutmaster, however. So, in this case he/she
would become the final decision maker if the badge was indeed
finished.

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 148

Posted: 02 Jul 2004 06:56 pm Post subject: Re: Changing
counselors

hehe I see about a dozen questions mixed in amongst these
"examples". I apologize in advance if I miss a point

wendas wrote:
For whatever reason, A scout must change counselors..

Example 1:
Counselor finds another counselor to replace him. But
the scout is not comfortable working with the new
counselor. Does he have any options?

The problem here starts with defining "not comfortable". If
not comfortable involves a possible youth protection issue,
the Scout should be removed from the situation immediately.

If not comfortable means it's an adult the Scout has never met
or knows but doesn't like much, this is part of life. We will
always have to deal with people we don't know or don't like.
This situation should be weighed against what the Scoutmaster
knows about the Scout and the counselor and their prior
relationships, if any.

If not comfortable means the new counselor is not as easy as
the previous counselor, well, this is how life works as well.

Does the Scout have any options? Yes, of course. He can
complain. He can refuse to complete the merit badge. He can
quit Scouting. (The reason I'm stating these negative things
first is to point out that a good troop will work with their
Scouts to try to keep things like that from happening.) Aside
from the negative, his only real choice is to request a new
counselor and hope that the reasons he gives for wanting a new
one are good enough to convince the Scoutmaster. The SM has
the final say.

wendas wrote:
Example 2:
Scout looks for his own counselor and finds a few with
different ideas.

Counselor 1: will not except any work done previously
must start everything over. ex. if hiking and he has
accomplished 2 hikes, the new counselor will not except
them because they were not with him.

This is unacceptable. If I wasn't able to convince the
counselor to change his ways, I'd find other ways to use him
as a resource but take him off my counselor list.

wendas wrote:
Counselor 2: will except accomplished work but only
after discussing it with the boy and getting a good feel
that he has learned what he needs to from it.

This guy has the right attitude. While we CANNOT make a Scout
repeat merit badge work he has already done, we do want to
make sure he has done it. This can place the counselor in a
tight spot. In some instances it can be pretty obvious that
work wasn't completed before (ie that 50 mile hike at Philmont
he was supposed to have completed yet he's never been out of
Georgia). In other cases it's not (ie he started his
Citizenship at 11, he's 16 now, and he thinks the first ten
ammendments of the Constitution make up the Declaration of
Independence). Handling this type thing while complying with
the no repeated work rule can be tough and it's important for
the counselor and the troop leadership to worh through this
together.

wendas wrote:
Counselor 3: will not even ask questions, if signed off
it is completed no questions asked.

This counselor will get the same talking to that the first
counselor got, if for obviously different reasons. Once again,
don't throw away the resource even if you can't make use of
him as a counselor any longer.

wendas wrote:
Obviously the Scout will choose Counselor 3. But, is
counselor 3 really the best choice? Are all the
counselors right, or are any of them wrong? How do you
weigh the counselors comfort level with coming into a
merit badge in the middle, with the rights of the scout?

I think you've just given a really good reason why the
Scoutmaster has the final say in assigning merit badge
counselors - counselor 3. As for comfort level, counselors are
volunteers and if they feel uncomfortable taking over
partially completed work, they can always decline to help in
that way.

wendas wrote:
New counselor agrees to replace old counselor, but
becomes aware that some items that were signed off by
the old counselor where either not done, or not done to
where the scout really understands. What should he do?
If he agrees to replace a counselor did he agree to
accept all the scouts work as is?

This is really the meat of the matter which is why I saved it
for last. There really is no pat answer for this. Each
situation is a little different. BSA rules are quite specific
that you cannot make Scouts repeat work already done. The
question becomes was it really done. Unless you can answer
that based on personal knowledge or physical proof, you cannot
just ignore what the previous counselor says happened.

The simplest way of getting to the truth is just talking to
the Scout. Have the Scout relate to you what he's already
done. If they have work previously completed, ask them to
bring it with them. Do not "test" him, just have a
conversation. Actually, you should always have this type
conversation on a partial whether or not you have any reason
to suspect activities have not been completed. You need to
access your Scout's knowledge level in order to be a good
mentor for the merit badge subject matter.

If you still have concerns after talking with the Scout, work
you're way up the food chain. Troop leaders should have some
idea what was done during outings and summer camp while
parents know about other extracurricular activities.
Eventually you should get a picture of whether or not the
Scout actually did the work. Unfortunately, if the Scout is
adamant the work was completed, you're only real options are
to move forward from where things stand on the merit badge
record or to decline to work with the Scout. Each has their
pluses and minuses depending on the situation - once again
there is no pat answer.

Most of this was written before I saw steelgirl's response and
I just want to piont out that her "don;t sweat the small
stuff" attitude is pretty much on the mark. We can get
overwrought about doing the right thing and following the
rules and sometimes it just takes a little positive thought, a
few encouraging words, and a little elbow grease to straighten
out problems like this.

Unfortunately, I must point out that only a merit badge
counselor registered for the badge being taught can officially
sign off on a merit badge requirement. While Scoutmaster's
used to be allowed to sign off on incomplete requirements,
that time has come and gone. It may be overlooked, then again,
it may come back to haunt you at the most inopportune times.

It's worth noting that Scoutmaster's can sign up to be merit
badge counselors for subjects they are qualified to teach.
This is true for any adult leadership position. Throughout my
Scouting career I was signed up as a counselor for several
badges regardless of what other Scouting position I held.

(Sorry for the novelet )

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wendas
Tenderfoot

Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 11
Location: NH
Posted: 06 Jul 2004 01:59 pm Post subject:

This did help! Sounds our policy would have been on track, but
might have dipped alittle bit into not being in line with
official policy.

I knew that if the merit badge stayed with the same counselor
they could not make a scout redo work.. But I did not know
this would apply if the scout changed counselors. I more
thought that this was the risk a scout would have to assume in
order to change counselors. Sort of like if you changed
colleges, some courses would be accepted by your new college,
others may not. Since our scouts have more choice of
counselors then it seems you would offer him, it becomes his
responsibility to make an informed decision, before change
counselors. The choice is the scouts, unless the scoutmaster
has a problem with the choice.

I also believe that when picking up a partial merit badge
counselor # 2 is the best, but was not sure if counselor #1 or
#3 were breaking any scout rules, since I saw no rules that
seemed to apply to it. If the scout can not be forced to redo
work, that would mean that counselor #1 is wrong, where
counselor #3 is simply not a good counselor.

We were going to recommend that when changing counselors the
Counselor should review in order to get a feel for where the
scout was, but not redo, UNLESS the scout was picking up a
badge he had not worked on for years, had no old work and
could not remember what he had done. But, it sounds like the
UNLESS must be taken out of our policy, because this would be
asking the scout to redo work. We will have to revise it to a
counselor verbally bringing him back up to speed in the
review.

Like Optimist says, if you do not shine a direction for the
scout to go in if he has a problem, he most likely will choose
the easy but wrong course. They will either complain to fellow
scouts, rather then talking to leaders, or quit scouting. I am
hoping to shine a very welcoming, easy to follow light. But,
if the true problem the scout is having is miscommunication,
not a poor counselor, you would want to fix that in a way that
gets the scout to learn from the experience.

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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 09 Jul 2004 10:35 am Post subject: Scoutmaster can
act as a counsellor

If you dont have a counselor for a particular MB or if you
have a problem with a current MBC, the SM may sign of a MB on
a blue card.

BUT.......

Be care ful with this, the SM is limited how many cards he can
sign as a counselor. We dont want the SM to be padding his MB
count now do we.

I am the MBC for several MB Rifle shooting, shotgun shooting,
electricity, electronics, computers, photography, and
cinematography.

But if we have others to council these badges I send my scouts
to them to get the badge signed off rather then me as the SM.

Just good practice. But just between you and me, I love
teaching MB classes to the scouts! And I do when ever I can!
_________________
Bob Torkelson
Scoutmaster Troop 538
www.wx5troop538.homestead.com
Live The Oath!

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wendas
Tenderfoot

Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 11
Location: NH
Posted: 09 Jul 2004 09:35 pm Post subject:

The way this was worded, I just wanted to clarify something.

As SM do you sign off on only MB that you are an official
counselor for, or do you sign off on any partial MB?

I kind of got the impression the other statement in question
above was because it was stated they could sign off on ANY MB
even without being offical counselor for it, simply because
the title gave them the right to do so. Which I take was an
old policy that some people have not been informed is
outdated.

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