Unit Leader Signature

[Mrw]

I know scouts forget blue cards all the time. We had three over to work on music with my older son, who is now an ASM with our troop, over Christmas and they were all quite grateful I keep extra blank ones myself.

Scouts have also been known to leave the signed card in apocket in the laundry. This produces a pocketful of blue mulch and an extra call to the counselor looking for a new signature.

What I was really responding to was the statement made in a prior post that the boys never have blue cards before coming to meet the counselors at a scheduling day or for the subsequent classes in the next month.

In that amount of time, there should be plenty of time for a blue card to have been issued.

[Quailman]

RWSmith makes a good point about the distinction between MB Clinics, Summer Camp and individual pursuit of a MB that interests the scout. I just taught a MB Clinic (Dentistry), for which the sign-up occurred at the district MB fair two weeks ago. There was plenty of time to get BCs. Of the fifteen boys who showed up, I think only four had cards in advance. I didn't worry about it, because they had all signed up through the MB fair.

Now, if a boy came to me (with a buddy of course) to say "I'd like to work on XYZ MB (I'm listed for about a dozen), I would certainly ask him to get a signed BC before we start. But if he showed up and said "D'oh! I left it in my scout book at home." I'd still let him start because he got it. I don't need to see it if he tells me he got it. I mean, he's a boy scout, isn't he?

As for parents as MBC, when I attended our council MBC training, they pointed out that it's better for the boy if he has a different counselor. The parents always expect much more from their own children than they would from other kids, and that's not fair to the boy. But there's nothing to prohibit a parent as MBC. If father and son have gone sailing together for years, as long as the dad checks off all the requirements, he can sign off. And who knows, he may realize that the son doesn't know CPR and insist that he get trained.

[cballman]

lets throw another loop on this out there. I as a MBC have taught a few different merit badges but I only have signed one for my son. I will always let another MBC sign his card because I dont wont anybody to say I let him have it. we like to use the merit badge worksheets. which in turn i know is asking for something more for the badges BUT since I was a scout a couple of years ago I can relate as to how easy it is to keep the work together so the boy dont lose it. I as a swimming MBC also work closely with our troop leadership to know that all of the new boys will be taking the swimming MB if not from me but at scout camp. My wife will chart out on excel the boys names and req. so that I can check them of as they do them then later I will fill out the bluecard so the boys can go to the advancement person. this is the way it works for me.

[evmori]

I have been a MB counselor for 20 years! If a Scout doesn't have a signed blue card from his SM or designee, we don't start.

[Quailman]

Do you teach MB Clinics, or have you ever taught at a camp? I taught at our council's Winter Camp one year. Unlike summer camp, they only have adult counselors. It's fairly impractical to have the boys get them signed in advance, especially since the camp prints its own version with the requirements on the back. So there's no question of which requirements a boy used (camp starts the day after Christmas and changes often take effect January 1), we circle incomplete requirements on the back of the "card". Yes, the cards are 8.5x11. But the boy's having registered through their troops for the camp is evidence enough that they have approval for the classes in which they're enrolled.

That is carried over to the merit badge fair, though the boys come on their own to sign up for classes. Since the SM may not be aware that the boys are enrolling, I suppose we should enforce the blue card rule. In fact, I plan to propose it in the planning for next year's fair (being careful not to show too much interest in taking on a leadership role in the event ).

[ASM-142]

If a scout can not start a MB without approval from his SM then the SM controls the scouts advancement. Advancement should be controlled by the scout himself.

Read the SM handbook & Boy Scout Handbook. They both state the Scout is to receive a signed MB card & counselor name from his SM. And a merit badge doesn't need to be done for advancement purposes. They can be done because of an interest in the subject.

I have read both books and I also know that MBs are required for advancement for all ranks beyond first class.

[WVBeaver05]

At our annual Merit Badge College the Scouts are instructed to bring signed Blue Cards. I usually take an ample supply and have given blanks to other SMs. What happens in the classes when they don't take the cards? Don't know. I'm usually teaching SM Specific (i.e. Indoor Leader) training -- and my students don't need a Blue Card.

Likewise, at Summer Camp, Scouts are told to bring the cards. Again I bring plenty in case some are forgotten/lost/washed/whatever since the preceeding meeting. Or, in case someone changes their mind.

My rule is that I will sign the card after the Scout fills out the parts that he can (name, unit, MB, etc.) and only after. I have seen some of the instructors at Summer who fill out everything except the signatures.

YiS

[ASM-142]

SM says, "I know that MBC 'A' is slammed at work right now (or, already in the middle of another class, etc.); so, let's go with MBC 'B'." Okay--I can deal with that.

This should be the decision of the MBC and not the SM. There have been plenty of times where I have been slammed at work and have put in 70 hours a week. However, during those times I also appeciate a break such as working with a scout on a MB.

SM says, "MBC 'C' will just pencil-whip it (or, I don't like him); so, you can't use him." Nay, that don't cut it because, if that really is the case, and you (the SM) know it, why is that MBC still on the roster?

If in the opinion of the SM a MBC just signs off on things then s/he needs to bring this to the attention of Council so the MBC can be removed from the approved list. As long as the person is an approved MBC then they can be used.

[RWSmith]

My rule is that I will sign the card after the Scout fills out the parts that he can (name, unit, MB, etc.) and only after.

I agree wholeheartedly! Even though (y'all know how strongly) I believe the SM (designated ASM) is obligated to give the Scout a Blue Card upon request... Like any other blank check, a MBC should likewise NOT accept (at face value) a "blank check" Blue Card from a Scout, i.e., the BC has the UL's Signature, while everything else is left blank.

When this happens to me, I check with the SM to verfiy he knows the boy is working on said MB -and- try to compel the Scout and his SM to understand the importance of ALWAYS having the Scout's info. (incl. Unit/District/Council), as well as the specfic MB selected, completed PRIOR to presenting it to the MBC.

This single step, in and of itself, constitutes "satisfactory evidence" to the MBC that the UL and Scout, both, did what they were supposed to do prior to the Scout's contacting the MBC. Although, this particular matter is strictly procedural, i.e., administrative, and not specifically advancment-"requirements" related, it is still a well-reasoned and established process of maintaining the adult "chain of custody" regarding the Scout's advancement activities back to the SM.

----------------------------

Re: Summer Camps and Blue Cards and Non-Blue Cards... Our Council uses Blue Cards at Camp. (Just FYI, to my knowledge, the above paragraph is the expected practice at our Camp.) Anyhow, the real "Blue Card" is NOT a required BSA form. Some Councils have gotten away from real Blue Cards and use other formats, i.e., typically, computer print-outs. When this occurs to my son's Troop, we simply duplicate the process, in order to match our record-keeping method, and ask the Camp to stamp our boy's BCs (which we prepare, based on the print-outs provided... even Partials). We have yet to be denied this request, even though we did get some funny looks one year.

[RWSmith]

SM says, "I know that MBC 'A' is slammed at work right now (or, already in the middle of another class, etc.); so, let's go with MBC 'B'." Okay--I can deal with that.

This should be the decision of the MBC and not the SM. There have been plenty of times where I have been slammed at work and have put in 70 hours a week. However, during those times I also appeciate a break such as working with a scout on a MB.

While I can agree that it could be the decision of the MBC, the established proceedure clearly gives the SM the first-choice in slecting the MBC to be used. But, as I've said before, that doesn't mean the Scout is mandated to the use that MBC. He has every right to ask for a specific MBC, or to even (wisely on the Scout's and/or the SM's part), to be allowed to check with all available MBCs, for the very reason you stated... "There have been plenty of times where I have been slammed at work and have put in 70 hours a week. However, during those times I also appeciate a break such as working with a scout on a MB." The more legitimate avenues (choices) the UL gives the Scout to advance, the more the Scout is enabled to advance, and grow.

SM says, "MBC 'C' will just pencil-whip it (or, I don't like him); so, you can't use him." Nay, that don't cut it because, if that really is the case, and you (the SM) know it, why is that MBC still on the roster?

If in the opinion of the SM a MBC just signs off on things then s/he needs to bring this to the attention of Council so the MBC can be removed from the approved list. As long as the person is an approved MBC then they can be used.

Yeah, my point (al beit, completely implied), exactly... I couldn't agree with you more. The only distinction here is, what's the UL's job (the adult), and what's the Scout's job (the kid). If the pencil-whipping MBC is on the roster, it's not the kid's fault. So, who does that leave? What if this MBC is the only one in the District/Council who's on the "approved" roster for that particular MB? Who has failed the Scout, before he even got started? The adults have.

[ASM-142]

I agree wholeheartedly! Even though (y'all know how strongly) I believe the SM (designated ASM) is obligated to give the Scout a Blue Card upon request... Like any other blank check, a MBC should likewise NOT accept (at face value) a "blank check" Blue Card from a Scout, i.e., the BC has the UL's Signature, while everything else is left blank.

As a MBC I would not meet with a scout that did not have a signed Blue Card. At times that is the only way I know that the boy actually is a registered scout.

[coneyraven]

Not only a registered scout, but also is serious in taking the merit badge in the first place......plus, having the SM's signature signifies that he/she has enough confidence in the skills and general knowledge in the subject matter that the scout should be able to accomplish his goal of completing the requirements......for example, if a scout brought along a blue card for Lifesaving, yet, w/o a signature, how do you even know he knows how to swim in the first place? Or do you really think a new scout is ready for Wilderness Survival....at least w/ the SM signature, it shows faith in the fact that the scout has the foundational knowledge for that particular merit badge in the first place.

CR

[RWSmith]

Not only a registered scout, but is serious in taking the merit badge in the first place

Where is it written that the SM has the right to judge if a Scout is "serious" before handing over a BC? Furthermore, that BC could be five years old; it would still be as good as the first day the SM signed it, right? And, with that being said, I guess the "being registered" thing ain't really what a BC is for, huh?

....plus, having the SM's signature signifies that he/she has enough confidence in the skills and general knowledge in the subject matter that the scout should be able to accomplish his goal of completing the requirements.

So, are you saying we need to go back to Skill Awards? Or, that todays' SM is supposed to pre-judge a Scout's "skills and general knowledge" prior to allowing a Scout to take, oh, I don't know... say, Fingerprinting? It's not the SM's job to pre-qualify a Scout's intent, or ability, or desire to complete ANY Merit Badge. A Scout completing some portion of a MB, yet failing to complete the entire MB, is still an acceptable, even successful, outcome.

....for example, if a scout brought along a blue card for Lifesaving, yet, w/o a signature, how do you even know he knows how to swim in the first place?

So, with a SM's signature, the MBC can assume the Scout has already met Req. 1 before every getting to the MBC? Or, are you saying the SM should NOT give a Scout a BC for Lifesaving until he's met Req. 1? Hmm... Nothing more; nothing less? SM sig. or not, a MBC would be wise not to assume anything about the the Scout's ability to swim until he has talked with the Scout. IOW, a Scout's ability to swim (or lack thereof) has nothing whatsoever to do with a BC. (Sidebar: Contrary to popular belief, the Swimming MB is NOT a pre-req. for taking the Lifesaving MB... for a reason.)

Or do you really think a new scout is ready for Wilderness Survival....at least w/ the SM signature, it shows faith in the fact that the scout has the foundational knowledge for that particular merit badge in the first place.

Maybe he is. Maybe he is. So, what does a kid have to prove to the SM if he wants a Blue Card for the Dentistry MB... brush his teeth? Good grief!

SM to GSMOTU: "Oh, Great Scoutmaster, how do I change the world?"
GMSOTU to SM: "One SM at a time, my child."

P.S. Welcome to the board, CR.

[coneyraven]

Very interesting points that you bring up...too many to address in one response though....you are right about the blue card not having to be the proof of a registered scouter....if a scout approached me with a blue card, whether he's a registered scouter or not would never cross my mind, it's a "no-brainer" if the SM signature is on it.....there's is one thing you mentioned that I'd love a little clarification on (pardon me if I'm not too skilled w/ the quote button)---here goes

A Scout completing some portion of a MB, yet failing to complete the entire MB, is still an acceptable, even successful, outcome.

-----what would you consider to be a successful outcome when they fail to complete the entire MB? The fact that they attempted it would certainly be worth the proverbial "pat on the back"---what do you think? Regarding the swimming merit badge being required for lifesaving...you're right there, it amazes me how many assume that the swimming badge has to be earned first.....BTW---I noticed that your a moderator of the forum, nice job on it....I'm going to recommend to others in the area....great source for ideas and answers...Thanks

[evmori]

Merit badges are done for advancement but they don't have to be. They can be done because a boy has an interest in a subject.

[cballman]

to clarify a point many years ago back in the middle to late 1970s the first requirment for lifesaving merit badge was to have earned the swimming merit badge first. now they have changed the req. a few years ago so if a child wants to earn lifesaving first then its ok. i dont like it but theres nothing I can do about that.

[RWSmith]

CR,

Thanks for the kudos. And, please, forgive me for coming at you a little too zealous in my last post.

Here's what I mean about "the MB" and success... that little, round patch ain't nothin' but a "carrot on a stick." And, we (esp. Americans) tend to think the carrot is the goal/reward... The goal of the "MB" is not to be achieved; it is simply to be available... to expose as many Scouts as possible to as many undiscovered wonders as possible. The reward is the journey, the exposure, to plant the seeds of dreams... Looking back far enough, from Steven Spielberg's perspective as a young Scout, he could not wrap his mind around the process, the art, the science of Photography. Why? Because he didn't know anything about it. Like any other kid, he knew what a photograph was; but, it's what he didn't know (his curiosity) that drove him to take that MB... He has publicly stated that the Photography MB started him on the path to "Star Wars".

FWIW, you might want to take a look at this topic; it's one of the oldest on this board: Merit Badge Prerequisites. Lots of varying opinions; but, it'll sure make you think.

One more thing; just to clarify... carrots are good for you, too (I still have mine.)

[coneyraven]

RW----No forgiveness necessary.....I look at it as though it's just passion about scouting showing through...

....as for Spielberg...never knew it, very interesting.

...anyhow, I plan on being a frequent visitor to the forum....

Thanks,
CR

[Quailman]

I'm guessing you either meant to say Close Encounters of the Third Kind or George Lucas.

[RWSmith]

Oops... Yeah, that movie.