MB Counselor grief from parents. This is a long first post.

[cballman]

a different outlook on this as a MBC. the badges are written with numbers beside them. so maybe that might be a place to start with #1. but then again maybe as someone who does the merit badge as a hobby and signed up to be a MBC the maybe it makes more sense for him or her to start with say #4 or #5. it would seem to me that which I will get some grief over this one but here goes. the merit badge program was designed for kids between the ages of 11-18. not for people who have to diesect every single word. the merit badge program should be fun and rewarding not just for the kids but also for the MBC.

[TopangaScouter]

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[Quailman]

It's already been said, but when teaching a program it's up to the MBC, and when working on a MB, it's up to the scout what order he completes them (unless otherwise specified). My son did a 50 mile backpack trip with me when he had just turned 13. In preparation, I taught him most of what he'd need for requirements 5, 6 and (I think) 8 of camping. On our return, he tracked down a MBC and immediately got credit for those by discussing, demonstrating, etc. If the MBC had refused credit because he hadn't yet planned a duty roster, he would have (a) been furious and (b) gotten very discouraged.

I teach a Bird Study class each winter, and I have adapted the worksheets so that they are in the order I go through the requirements. I also deleted the options I don't cover to save paper.

The numbers are just there to differentiate one requirement from another - not to indicate a prescribed sequence.

[evmori]

Maybe a fair wording of the statement is A Merit Badge Counselor abiding by the policies and procedures of the BSA will not require that a Merit Badge's requirements be completed in any particiular order unless specified in the requirements.

Excellent! Right on the money.

It's the Scouts MB, not the counselors. As long as the Scout fulfills the requirements of the badge, in most cases, it makes no difference what order the requirements are completed.

[ASM-142]

The MBC has the right to teach requirements in any order that s/he wants. However, a scout does not need to be taught each requirment by the MBC. Therefore, if a scout went to the MBC with requirement 7 satisfied while the MBC was still teaching requirement 5, then the MBC should sign off on the requirement. There is no reason for the MBC to have the scout wait.

[Nuts4Scouts]

In regard to what requirements to use when BSA updates MB booklets - from BSA National Website -

For official requirements, the current-year Boy Scout Requirements book takes precedence. However, once a Scout has started working on a merit badge, he may stay with the requirements in effect when he started. He will not be required to meet newly introduced changes unless the BSA's National Council places a specific timeline on the implementation of new requirements.

The Boy Scout Requirements book is updated yearly. The MB books are not. Note - the above states - "he may stay with the requirements in effect when he started." Your council shop might be selling older versions of MB books. Before starting any MB, you should check the current-year Boy Scout Requirements (now conveniently found online at the National website) for any changes.

TopangaScouter stated he was using a Camping MB book he purchased prior to the start of this summer. The current Boy Scout Requirements book is in effect from Jan 1, 2007 thru Dec 31, 2007. The Camping Merit Badge was last revised in 2005.

The correct, current, requirement for Camping MB #9C is - "Perform a conservation project approved by the landowner or land managing agency." It does not have to be completed on a campout, nor does it have to be initiated or put together by the Scout working on the MB. It simply has to be performed.


In regard to accepting work accomplished before meeting the MB Counselor - From the MBC Guide on the BSA National site -

At the first meeting, the Scout and his merit badge counselor review and start working on the requirements. In some cases, the Scout may share with the merit badge counselor the work he has started or accomplished.

While I doubt that anything will change the way TopangaScouter runs "his" Merit Badge, hopefully new MB Counselors will gain a bit of insight.

.

[TopangaScouter]

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[WeeWillie]

It is not the responsibility of the MBC to teach the badge. Read Merit Badge Counselling, The section Earning A Merit Badge specifically states. "Goes as far as he can to fulfill the requirements on his own." Teaching is never mentioned. The order merit badge requirements are completed is irrelevant except when specified in the requirement. Requirements are often functionally organized hence the numbering.

Merit Badge requirements and books were written for Scouts, not adults to hyper-analyze. Have you ever noticed that it is always adults not Scouts proposing these hype-legal interpretations of requirements such as Camping MB Req 9c? Req 9c is subordinate to Req 9 "Show experience in camping by doing the following." Req 9c should be a matter of course for your troop whenever it goes camping, even if it means just cleanning up trash.

Troop Meetings are not merit badge sessions although merit badge requirements can (and should) be met at meetings. Many MBs such as 1st Aid and Orienteering require the MB applicant to teach a skill. For several years I drove my son to administer OA elections and have seen my share of merit badge mills where Scouts are spoon fed merit badges. I've seen these same troops at Camporees where their Outdoor Skills are poor. Last year I ran the knot station and encountered an Eagle with Palms / SPL / OA Brotherhood Scout who could not tie a Square Knot.

When the MBC is also a parent / SM / ASM / CC / CM there is always is a potential a conflict of interest. I know BSA policy allows it! However, I've had problems in my troop with parent MBCs low balling requirements and once with a parent ignoring requirements outright because they interferred with Basketball season.

I haven't been a MBC in 2.5 years.

[jr56]

It is true as has already been posted, the scouts can complete requirements in any order, as long as it is not specifically addressed in the requirements. So you can avoid alot of grief with parents if you follow merit badge counseling proceedures correctly, instead of making up your own.
Also, in response to the previous post, just because an Eagle cannot tie a square knot, doesn't mean that he didn't know how to do it at one time.
I've been an Eagle for over 30 years, but, I haven't been out camping much recently, and so I bet there are some basic knots that I don't remember right off at this point. Are you going to accuse me of being "given" my Eagle too?

[WeeWillie]

JR56

Troops that practice the 8 Methods of Scouting do not produce Eagle Scout / SPLs that can not tie a square knot. The reasons why Scouts can not perform basic scout skills include:
They never learned them in the 1st place.
They weren't tested to insure they learned the skill.
They weren't allowed the opportunity to master the skill after learning and testing.

These are characteristics of a Merit Badge (Eagle) Mill. The Scout in question did what his adult leaders allowed him to do which wasn't very much.

What kind of example does an Eagle Scout who can not tie a square knot set for younger Scouts?

How can you have a boy run troop when the boys can't run the troop?

How can an older Scout teach and mentor younger Scouts when they can't perform the skills themself?

How can a SPL fufill the responsibilities of his POR according to the SPL Handbook when he can't perform basic Scout skills?

We have two camporees a year and S-1 knots are always an event. It is also a Summer Camp event. It wasn't a surprise.

I was a Star / PL / SPL / JASM 30 years ago. Those skills that I learned and practiced as an Scout and continued to use as an adult I have retained. That includes Knots. Those skills that I learned and practiced as a Scout and have not used as an Adult, I have not retained. That includes Semaphore. I earned the rank and positions and assume you did too!

[ASM-142]

Troops can follow the 8 methods of scouting and still have Eagle scouts that can not tie a square knot. Tieing a square knot is a skill learned early in scouting. If a boy earned Eagle at a young age and then continued with scouting then by the time he is 17 it is possible that she forgot how. It could be that during the time from when he earned Eagle to when he was 17 that he was teaching other skills while allowing the junior leaders in the troop to teach knots.

[FrankJ]

You do realize the square knot is much the same knot you use to tie your shoes?

[TopangaScouter]

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[Nuts4Scouts]

Except that what is used to tie shoes, and many other things, is generally a Granny Knot.

A Granny Knot, although very similar, is NOT a Square Knot, and should not be used in place of a Square Knot because a Granny can slip and does not hold loads.

Many things, in order to retain them, should be practiced, and used often. This is especially true of knots. If you go a month or two without using a particular knot, you will most likely forget which end goes around which piece and have to look it up to be certain.

[jr56]

Yes, Frank, I will concede that if you have a properly functioning troop with all that goes with the 8 methods, you probably won't see an Eagle very often that can't tie a square knot. But, what I was trying to say is that all skills are quickly lost unless used frequently, there are many reasons why they might not be in each individual case.

[FrankJ]

JR56: I concede your point that if you do not practice a skill you will lose it even if you where once good at it. I think that was WeeWillie's point as well, You need to practice skills that are important to you.

To be honest I am not sure of the percentage of eagles in my troop who do or do not remember how to tie a square not, since I do not ask them to do so on a regular basis. If the reef falls out of their sails, it is their problem, not mine. Although I think my troop is good, it is just one of many in an excellent program.

If your shoes constantly untie themselves, then maybe because your are tying granny knots & need to work on your scout skills.

[WeeWillie]

The Square Knot is the simplest Scout Skill we teach, test and retain. It is a Webelos AOL requirement. Had I suggested that an Eagle Scout / SPL who could not tie a diagonal lashing was deficient I could understand the consternation.

We struggle with skill retention too but there are troops that aren’t even trying because of their preoccupation with advancement. This Scout was a newly minted, early Eagle with over 30 merit badges. He was a Merit Badge Mill product. Skill retention was not a priority because the leaders skills were weak and skill retention interferes with spoon feeding their Scouts with merit badges.

Two months prior to the camporee the events were announced at Round Table and distributed by e-mail. About a month prior to the Camporee our Troop Theme was Countdown to Camporee. Each week we practiced a Scout Skill event. If a Scout struggled with a particular skill he was paired up with an older Scout and practiced. (Teaching a skill is the best way to retain a skill.) Camporee Friday night our SPL got the troop together and we practiced knots for the next day's events. We did very well. There were other troops that had similar pre-Camporee preparations. They did well too! There were other troops that didn’t prepare and spent Friday night playing with their Game Boys and Ipods. Guess how they did? Why even show up to fall flat on your face?

[WVBeaver05]

Let me comment on this a bit.

When you say he couldn't tie a square knot, I wonder what that means. If that means that he didn't get it right the first time or that he struggled that is one thing. If he couldn't (wouldn't?) try and figure it out and get it after a few tries, that is quite another. At least to me.

(Of course, I once knew a fellow who contended that if you didn't still know something then you hadn't really learned it. But, he had and exceptional memory and was young at the time. Perhaps he has changed his mind by now.)

Why would I say that? Because the square knot isn't that hard. If you haven't done if for a while, you may mess it up, but you should recognize it and be able to fix it within a couple tries. And if you have ever known how (I hope I'm not being like the fellow that I used to know) then you should recognize a correct and an incorrect square knot.

At least that is what I think, and I'm not so young anymore.

YiS

[WVBeaver05]

Another story about knot competitions.

At one point our Troop had a 2-3 year gap with very few new Scouts. Then we had an older group (all Star and Life at the time), and a younger group (from Scout to Second Class with maybe a First Class thrown in).

There was going to be a knot tying competion at the upcoming Camporee and the older Scouts were deeply into an Eagle required MB at the time. They helped some, but the younger Scouts practiced weekly and took ropes home and practiced. A few weeks before the Camporee we had a knot relay between the older Scout Patrol and the younger Patrol.

Perhaps you can guess the outcome.

The younger Scouts DESTROYED the older ones. It wasn't even close. I don't think the older ones were half way through when the younger ones finished.

Needless to say the older Scouts were embaressed! They asked for a retry the next week. I guess they brushed up during the week. I don't recall for sure who won (the younger ones, I think), but at least it was close and was a race.

So practice is important for this type of skills - no doubt about it. (I actually carry a short piece of rope around with me for a few days before I teach that section of Outdoor Leader Training just to polish up and refresh -- even though I am an Eagle Scout and I teach it once or twice a year.)

And, FYI, at the Camporee our Scouts had a perfect score on knots.

YiS

[smtroop168]

I love knots but we seem to have gotten off topic. Bottom line is as a MBC you should follow the guidelines that many have stated in the discussion and do the best job you can to take care of the boys.