Written requirements?

[busymom]

Hi,
Forgive me if this question has been addressed previously. but can a counselor require a scout to write a requirement, when the requirements state tell or discuss? I say no, that would be adding to, or taking away, from the requirements. The counselor is only working with my two sons.
One child is very shy, and needs to learn to discuss and talk with adults.
I do not want him just submitting written answers. He could do that from home.
It has come to a point that the counselor said since I did not like the arrangement ,he was quitting. He was not going to change.
Wouldn't you guess, our D.E.is out on vacation,
and my child lacks just a couple of items on two diffrent merit badges, before his first Court of Honour.

I do not know how easy it would be to change counselors at this late date,
Our Scout Master just wants the topic to go away.

[jr56]

The merit badge requirements must be completed as stated, no more, no less. If the requirement say "discuss", that is what must be done. The counselor cannot require it in writing.

[busymom]

Can ayone give me an exact page and paragraph on that? It seems clear to me, but I seem to be tagged a trouble maker for even bringing it up.

[PaulSWolf]

The quote below is from either "A Guide to Merit Badge Counseling" (BSA Publication No. 34532A) or "Merit Badge Counselor Information" (No. 34405).

More or Less?

The Scout is expected to meet the requirements as stated-no more and no less. Furthermore, he is to do exactly what is stated. If it says "show or demonstrate," that is what he must do. Just telling about it isn't enough. The same thing holds true for such words as "make," "list," "in the field," and "collect, identify, and label."

[spl08]

More or Less?

The Scout is expected to meet the requirements as stated-no more and no less. Furthermore, he is to do exactly what is stated. If it says "show or demonstrate," that is what he must do. Just telling about it isn't enough. The same thing holds true for such words as "make," "list," "in the field," and "collect, identify, and label."

So what if the merit badge cousler is the one who says something like "since we don't have that stuff available here at scout camp, lets just talk about how to put your gear together," and then he signs that requirement off later because that's what the scout did. would you consider that scout to not have earned that merit badge and also any rank that came along with having earned that if a rank advancement took place? if you believe "no," then should that scout techincally give up that rank and badge?

[RWSmith]

More or Less?

The Scout is expected to meet the requirements as stated-no more and no less. Furthermore, he is to do exactly what is stated. If it says "show or demonstrate," that is what he must do. Just telling about it isn't enough. The same thing holds true for such words as "make," "list," "in the field," and "collect, identify, and label."

So what if the merit badge cousler is the one who says something like "since we don't have that stuff available here at scout camp, lets just talk about how to put your gear together," and then he signs that requirement off later because that's what the scout did. would you consider that scout to not have earned that merit badge and also any rank that came along with having earned that if a rank advancement took place? if you believe "no," then should that scout techincally give up that rank and badge?

spl08: Yes to the first part, and no to the second. Were a bit off topic here, but I'll give you the short answer... In the world of Scouting, once any requirement is signed off, it's a done deal. Right or wrong; it's done. At this point, it's up to the Scout to go back and "make it right." I.e., do some reqiurement that he feels, in his heart, he should truly or correctly complete, even though he's gotten it signed off... It happens.

busymom: If your shy one needs a little more time, that's okay; there will be more Courts of Honor. If you can be there with him, i.e., for moral support, to help him get through the discussion parts, then do so. If he has some sort of special needs, you should discuss it with the SM, discretely, of course. Otherwise, the boy must complete the requirements, as stated... like Paul said. Also, IMHO, you certainly should not be taking this type issue to the DE... not his/her job.

[Nuts4Scouts]

RW - The point is busymom does want her son to complete the requirements - as written. It was the MBC who was changing the requirements.

busymom - RW is correct, your DE has nothing to do with the situation. Since the Merit Badge Counselor (MBC) has taken himself out of it, you need to contact your SM (shame on him BTW) & let him know that your son's advancement is not just going to "go away" & ask for the name of a new MBC. Your council might even post a list on their website, ours does.

Once your sons have a new MBC, they will need to explain to him/her the situation & see what work will be accepted. It really should not be a very big deal, however the new MBC might want to go over some already completed material with the boys because it will be the new MBC's signature on the blue card signifying it has been correctly completed.

You might want to contact your council offices to find out who is in charge of the Merit Badge Counselors and let that person know the problems you had with MBC #1.

[busymom]

I do not want my sons signed off on any incomplete badges.
To me , that just gives the message you do not think they are capable.
My son once refused to accept a geology pin at a pack meeting, because he mistakenly thought he need to do something else.
( he also sits in the back seat and watches my speedometer)

The only reason I mentioned the D.E. , was I wanted her to clarify the question.
I know her well from having worked together on District events.

I had already shown the counselor the" no more or less,
and he still saw it as subject to interpretation.

I hoped to find a specific wording somewhere about the
"writing vs telling"

[Nuts4Scouts]

Since the MBC is gone it is now a non-issue (except possibly to your Dist Advancement Chair).

Have your sons find a new MBC and go forward from there.

[joat]

I hoped to find a specific wording somewhere about the "writing vs telling"

There is nothing more specific that what is written in the merit badge book. Does it say "write", or "tell"?

[Mrw]

Your best bet is to get a new counselor. And just tell the SM that the boys didn't like the first guy and want to see someone else.

[cballman]

Ok busymom let me ask you a question what merit badge and req. are you refering to? it might help give you a better answer as to what other Merit Badge Counslers interpet the req. but personally if a req says to discuss then talk about it. if the req. says show then show me. if the req says write then write the answer down then show me. now I might see where there might be a problem when a MBC uses the worksheets then the reqs. are in written form then they might expect the scout to fill out the worksheets in full. sometimes we ask the kids to use the worksheets but we cannot require them even though that technically is asking the child for more. but personally I think that it helps the kids keep more organized and helps them keep all the work together.

[Lynda J]

Like others have said. If the requirements states discuss that is what it is to be. If it says write then it has to be written.

If your son in shy why not sit down with him before he goes and have him discuss the requirements with you. It might give him more belief in himself.

Two years ago our boys came back from camp complaining about the fact that most of the MBC were only a year or so older then they were. Kevin was upset about the Mammal Study badge. I counsel that badge. The kid overseeing it spent 3 15 minute sessions with the boys and then signed off on the requirements. Two of my boys told me they didn't do half of the requirements. But like already said. " once signed off it is a done deal" I had them help me with the badge the next time I worked with a boy. I also informed the Camp Director and our Council about the problem. They enjoyed it and they knew they had completed the requirements. I use lots of my boys to help teach the badges I cover. It's good for them and many times makes the Scout earning the badge more comfortable.

I think (don't have my book with me to check so I may be wrong) that somewhere in Rank advancement reqirements that a Scout is to help another Scout advance in Rank. If he helps another Scout earn a merit badge it has helped that Scout advance in Rank.

[milominderbinder2]

Folks, what we are having here is a discussion...in writing.

No where do any of the requriements specify an oral discussion.

A final exam question might say, "Discuss the ___." The professor is not thinking that you will start talking out loud. You are to write out an answer discussing the topic as asked.

One other point. A Scout does not choose the counselor or to have a new counselor. See page 22-23 of your Boy Scout Requriements book. It is also on line here:

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges.aspx

Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors.

- Craig

[Mrw]

Folks, what we are having here is a discussion...in writing.

No where do any of the requriements specify an oral discussion.

A final exam question might say, "Discuss the ___." The professor is not thinking that you will start talking out loud. You are to write out an answer discussing the topic as asked.

One other point. A Scout does not choose the counselor or to have a new counselor. See page 22-23 of your Boy Scout Requriements book. It is also on line here:

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges.aspx

Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors.

- Craig

For the purposes of doing merit badges, "discuss" means a verbal conversation. If the information is to be written, it is specified in the requirement. If a scout uses a worksheet or notebook and writes our his answer, that is his choice to do so, but it cannot be required.

[FrankJ]

My problem has always been scouts would rather discuss rather than write even when the requirement is to write.

[Cowboy]

Yes, WE are discussing because there is back and forth, question and answer going on. Simply giving a written answer is a one way street and is not discussion. A true discussion requires exchange of ideas and/or information. If the MB required a written answer then it would say LIST or provide an answer to. The reason MB's require DISCUSSION is to verify that the information is actually learned, not just copied out of the MB pamphlet or off the internet. (testing) the other big reason for a discussion instead of a theme paper is exactly what the OP is concerned with: These boys need to learn verbal communication. We are training leaders, not just journalists. (no offense to journalists, some of my favorite Uncles are award winning journalists).

[wagionvigil]

If it says write you write if it says discuss you discuss.There are reasons for that from an education stand point

[AquilaNegra2]

I'm afraid I'm in the 'interpretation' crowd here.

dis·cuss (dĭ-skŭs')
tr.v. dis·cussed, dis·cuss·ing, dis·cuss·es

1. To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.

Was the intent likely verbal communication? Yes. But it doesn't say that, and until National clarifies that it does, I think it's up to the MBC.

My sons have open American Cultures badges because the MBC interprets it this way and wants 500 words for each 'discussion' portion. One will likely do the written work; the other is determined to find another counselor. He says he's learned the hard way to ASK first. That's a good lesson in itself.

[Mrw]

I'm afraid I'm in the 'interpretation' crowd here.

dis·cuss (dĭ-skŭs')
tr.v. dis·cussed, dis·cuss·ing, dis·cuss·es

1. To speak with another or others about; talk over.
2. To examine or consider (a subject) in speech or writing.

Was the intent likely verbal communication? Yes. But it doesn't say that, and until National clarifies that it does, I think it's up to the MBC.

My sons have open American Cultures badges because the MBC interprets it this way and wants 500 words for each 'discussion' portion. One will likely do the written work; the other is determined to find another counselor. He says he's learned the hard way to ASK first. That's a good lesson in itself.

I would agree with the second one and find a new counselor. A back and forth discussion requires quite a bit more knowledge and understanding than an essay. And requiring extra written work of a boy who struggles with written communications is patently unfair. (One of my sons has always struggles with the writing.) And that would be the last time I referred a boy to that counselor too.