MB Counselor grief from parents. This is a long first post.

[TopangaScouter]

..

[PaulSWolf]

You're wrong. There is NO "Order". A Scout may do any of the requirements in any order, unless the requirements specifically state otherwise.

For example, Lifesaving MB Requirement 1 says"

Before doing requirements 2 through 15 ...

There's no such statement in the Camping MB requirements.

[wagionvigil]

First off welcome to the forum. You'll find no shortage of opinions including yours truly. I have never heard of a rule that say's you must do the requirements in order for any merit badge or rank. If a kid does 10 before 1 no big deal unless it says Before doing that you must do this. I have been a MBC for over 40 years and worked as an aquatics director at a scout camp while in college. when we did the Aquatic MB's they were done in no partiular order. Now I do more climbing than anything else and again requirements are done in no particular order.

[TopangaScouter]

..

[wagionvigil]

There are a couple and Camping is not one. Doing it the way you want the boys would have to do 1-8 before starting the 20 camping days. SCout camps when they do camping tell the boys to bring a signed paper from the SM Stating you have completed #9. AS for the expert That would be Paul Wolf that made the initial response. If a MErit Badge says you must do this before that then that is what you do. If you do it any other way you are basicially adding a requirement. Which is not allowed.

[wagionvigil]

The merit badge counselor assesses the Scout's knowledge to ensure he has completed all the required work—no more, and no less. You may not add to, delete from, or modify the merit badge requirements in any way, although certain considerations can be made for Scouts with disabilities.

[TopangaScouter]

..

[cballman]

well the first thing is also welcome to this forum. now the way to keep this parent quiet since you are the MBC is to tell them that you will start another class after this one is finished. That is they way that I would do it because I dont want to take away from the boys who started earlier. then the next class the parent who is making waves should be happy. most likley not but then again maybe. I would also explain that once a class has started then I am going to complete it with no other scouts added at that time. just my opinion.

[PaulSWolf]

Yes, yes. I got all that. I haven't added a single item except in the time line by which scouts have earned this MB.
My other contention is that I'm attempting to infuse some consistency into this MB. Four boys worked on this from the start and were on the cusp of completion.

The key word in your response is "except"

NO requirements can be added, deleted, or modified.

You CAN say, "I'll work with you when I'm done with these boys.", but you CAN'T say, "You must do the requirements in this specific order." The first is simply allocating your time. The second is changing the requirements.

There are precedents for performing reqs in some sort of order, are there not? The evidence is in the first response to my original post.

Question: Besides opinions, who is the final authority on this matter? Where is this information available?

Yes, there are precedents, like the example I quoted earlier. But where BSA requires specific prerequisites, they state them explicitly in the requirements. Another example is Swimming MB (3) which says

Before doing the following requirements, successfully complete Second Class rank requirements 7a through 7c and First Class rank requirements 9a through 9c

or Cooking MB (4a) which says

Using the menu planned for requirement 3 ...

In that case, obviously Requirement 3 must be done before 4a.

As for the "Final Authority", that's simple - BSA, in their published documents. In particular, two - Boy Scout Requirements (33215) and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures (33088). 33215 is also available on line at BSA's web site http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resou ... index.html (note there was an error made when BSA set up that site and the URL is correct, even though it says "32215"). Also note that the requirements in the current edition of 33215 OVERRIDE whatever is included in a merit badge pamphlet or the Scout Handbook. A new edition of 33215 is issued annually, usually early in January, and remains effective until the next edition is released.


Side note: Thanks Wagionvigil

[Mrw]

To add to the thing about not adding to the requirements, the one you cited states to perform a conservation project, it says nothing about who planned the project.

If other boys attend the campout and help with the project, you really should give them credit towards their badges for performing a project too.

[wagionvigil]

Another note is the current requirement book and all requirements is found at scouting.org

[wagionvigil]

Lets look at this example doing it your way.
A troop comes to Laurel Caverns for the weekend They are camping out. They are all working on camping mb but two are just starting it everyone but those two only have One requirement to fulfill before 10 and that is they are going to take climbing MB to get their 30'rappel. But all the boys are taking the mb as they are over 12. Your way the two boys would not be able to count their rappels for the MB as they are doing it out of order. EVen if they were not working on the MB yet those rappels would count when they decided to work on Camping.

[Quailman]

...I took MBC training three years ago...

You should contact your district (council?) training coordinator just to make sure they are not teaching that the requirements are sequential when they are not.

[TopangaScouter]

..

[evmori]

I agree as a MB counselor on should be aware of opportunities for completion of the merit badge. And as a MB counselor you can let the Scouts know of these opportunities. But, it is up to the Scout to pick & execute, not the MB counselor. And as others have posted, there is no progression required or even inferred in the camping MB.

[Mrw]

I can pretty much guarantee that none of our boys do this in a chronological manner!

Most of them start looking at it, figure out most of it has been done in the course of being active in the troop, and then sit down with the counselor to make a plan for finishing it.

This is another reason that the only badge we routinely do in the troop is First Aid. Other groups efforts are sometimes made in some of the patrols, but we encourage them to work on what they want on their own schedule.

[smtroop168]

While I appreciate your willingness to serve as a MBC, I agree with wagionvigil and Paul. There is no "order" to be followed in meeting the requirements for the MB. In my opinion the order in which the Camping MB requirements are listed are necessarily in the right "order" either.


Finally the BSA 2007 requirements book for Camping MB 9c does not say "on one of your campouts" so technically you are adding to the requirements as it doesn't need to be done on a campout but could be done as a separate service project.

Another weird example of no order is that you can earn Lifesaving before Swimming MB.

[WVBeaver05]

This is my first post here. I've joined this forum because I cannot find the hard and fast rules and answers to my questions. I'm looking for an authority on the topic of MB counselors and their trials and tribulations.

Welcome!! I hope you find as much help and information here as I have. You will find not only people with great deals of experience, but also a wide diversity of experiences and skills that can be even more valuable than then "authority" that you are looking for.

However, I want to work and play by the rules. I believe in consistency and giving the scouts the full benefit of what it takes to earn a MB, especially Eagle requireds.

This should be the goal of all leaders and MBCs, but unfortunately, I see too many times when this doesn't happen.

Not all MBC's are working the same way and quite frankly I feel that there are times when MB's are being dispensed like lollipops. Not always, but enough to make me shake my head in silent disbelief.

This should not happen. In cases where someone sees this happen, I believe, they MUST speak up. The Troop leadership and the District/Council need to know when this is happening so they can stop sending Scouts to this MBC. (And, as an aside, the District needs to meet with the MBC and restore the proper process. This is my position as opposed to summarily dropping the MBC. Attempt to correct first. Just my opinion.)

The specifics of this MB deal in a patrol and group environment so it's fitting that the group stick together especially when it comes to fulfilling many requirements.

fitting perhaps, but not required.

As MBC I understand this to be essentially the final requirement.

As pointed out by others, the requirements specify no particular order.

9c. requires a lot of effort and planning. That would be planning on the part of the scouts, not parents or MBC's.

I'm afraid that I don't see this in the requirements. I see perform a pre-approved project. I don't see anything about planning it or it being a lot of effort.

Again, my stand is that Camping MB is a progression of skill sets. My view is that the reqs were written in such a way that there is a beginning and end to the MB.
I don't see that in the requirements.

YiS

[WVBeaver05]

Finally the BSA 2007 requirements book for Camping MB 9c does not say "on one of your campouts" so technically you are adding to the requirements as it doesn't need to be done on a campout but could be done as a separate service project.

I didn't bother to check this because it doesn't impact my answer, but I hope this is a typo that will be corrected. I think that to be part of the Camping MB, the service project should be done on a campout.

But, leaving that strictly personal opinion aside, everyone please remember that a Scout may choose to complete a MB using the requirements that were in effect when he started the MB. They can't mix and match between versions but they can stay with the requirements that they started with. Or, they can switch completely to the current ones.

YiS

[TopangaScouter]

..