Out of council Merit Badge Days

[taicho_738]

Some of our boys went to a Merit Badge day that was conducted by another council. It was held on a Saturday and the group taking the Merit Badge was a rather large (30 Scouts). The problem was that the Merit Badge (First Aid) was being done in the morning session beginning at 9 A.M. to noon. In those three hours some of the boys were asked questions while many of them were not asked any. At the end of the session, all the boys were issued their signed Blue Cards stating that they had completed the Merit Badge. I have a problem with that. We have many qualified people that are counselors but the boys elect to go to these Merit Badge days because they can earn up to four badges in one day. Some never get asked any questions (or maybe one) and earn their badge. Can we elect to have the Eagle required Merit Badges be done in-troop with our counselors?

Taicho

[scoutaholic]

I'm not sure the problem has anything to do with the Merit Badge Day being Out of council.

In my area, there are Merit Badge Days offered by several districts, and also neighboring councils. Some are like the one you describe, some are not. Much of that depends on the planning and organization of those putting on the event, and the individual instructors.

Our neighboring council puts on a Merit Badge PowWow every November. They use 2 university campuses and the university people and resources. This is probably the best MB event I've ever seen.
I've been to other events where boys are packed into a room with an unprepared instructor who babbles for about 20 minutes and then signs all their cards.

It looks like your underlying questions are 'Can I keep the boys from going to a known bad event?', and 'What can I do about those that have already done it?'.

You could report to the organizers of the event and/or their district/council leadership. Hopefully this will help them to plan better events in the future, and remove bad MBCs from their approved list.

You could tell the boys not to go to xxx event because of yyy. Honesty up-front may work. Some of the boys will elect not to go. Some of the boys will go regardless of your oppinion. Some of the boys will be sent by their parents because the parents don't understand the difference, or don't care about the quality. For some, the goal is the badge, not the learning.

You could refuse to accept the signed MB card from xxx event. However, this will probably just upset the boys and their parents. In the end, if the MBC who signed the card is a registered MBC your refusal to accept it would be overturned on appeal. Probably not worth the fight.

You could discuss it individually with the boys involved. Some will see that they didn't really earn the badge and will choose to go back and finish it. However, some will not and you should be prepared for this outcome too. Even the boy who sees that he didn't earn the badge may have a hard time justifying this with his parents. You may be able to work out some way of awarding the badge (to satisfy the parent) and still have the boy complete it afterwards.

Your best option may be to do the badge with the rest of the troop. Then the boys who earned it will get a review. Those who received it without earning it will earn it. Those who have not done it yet will get the opportunity to earn it as well as having peers who have done it to help them along the way.

[smtroop168]

Can we elect to have the Eagle required Merit Badges be done in-troop with our counselors?

You certainly may offer all required MBs within your troop but you cannot require the boys in your troop to only do the required badges within your troop.

You could refuse to accept the signed MB card from xxx event. However, this will probably just upset the boys and their parents. In the end, if the MBC who signed the card is a registered MBC your refusal to accept it would be overturned on appeal. Probably not worth the fight.

No you can't refuse it. As long as the MBC is registered as such, it's a done deal.

You could report to the organizers of the event and/or their district/council leadership. Hopefully this will help them to plan better events in the future, and remove bad MBCs from their approved list.

Agree if you have first hand knowledge.

You could discuss it individually with the boys involved. Some will see that they didn't really earn the badge and will choose to go back and finish it. However, some will not and you should be prepared for this outcome too. Even the boy who sees that he didn't earn the badge may have a hard time justifying this with his parents. You may be able to work out some way of awarding the badge (to satisfy the parent) and still have the boy complete it afterwards.

Worth a try but not likely to succeed.

I organize a MBC here in PA. We also have Eagle required MBs. I am extremely careful to maintain quality control to keep situations as you describe from happening by picking counselors I know personally.

[scoutaholic]

...

You could refuse to accept the signed MB card from xxx event. However, this will probably just upset the boys and their parents. In the end, if the MBC who signed the card is a registered MBC your refusal to accept it would be overturned on appeal. Probably not worth the fight.

No you can't refuse it. As long as the MBC is registered as such, it's a done deal.
...

I didn't say it was a good idea. I specifically said it wouldn't work, would be overturned on appeal, and wasn't worth the fight. It was simply among the possible ideas.
That being said, you still COULD refuse.

[smtroop168]

And what I said was "As long as the MBC is registered as such, it's a done deal". It's unlikely that the sponsoring council would allow unregistered MB counselors. You can't refuse the card from the scout. There is no fight to have here. You can try and deal with the problem described through other means as you point out.

[Quailman]

As has been said before several times, "A card laid is a card played." it applies to Blue Cards as well as bridge.

[AquilaNegra2]

The suggestion to re-do the badge with the troop is a good one. It ensures the Scout has the knowledge, yet lets him keep the badge. You might even ask that Scout to help you with the instruction since he's already 'earned' the badge.

I would (and have) let the sponsoring organization and/or district know when there's a gimme badge. Usually, I'll ask the instructor about it first, then go up the chain. Don't know what good it's done, but a poor MBC who sees that there is oversight might (wishful thinking?) do better the next time.

We did have boys retake some of their summer camp badges. Art in less than 30 mins - what have they learned? It was, of course, at the Scout's discretion, but peer pressure can be positive as well as negative.

[wagionvigil]

The suggestion to re-do the badge with the troop is a good one. It ensures the Scout has the knowledge, yet lets him keep the badge. You might even ask that Scout to help you with the instruction since he's already 'earned' the badge.

I would (and have) let the sponsoring organization and/or district know when there's a gimme badge. Usually, I'll ask the instructor about it first, then go up the chain. Don't know what good it's done, but a poor MBC who sees that there is oversight might (wishful thinking?) do better the next time.

We did have boys retake some of their summer camp badges. Art in less than 30 mins - what have they learned? It was, of course, at the Scout's discretion, but peer pressure can be positive as well as negative.

No! No! No!

[smtroop168]

We did have boys retake some of their summer camp badges. Art in less than 30 mins - what have they learned? It was, of course, at the Scout's discretion, but peer pressure can be positive as well as negative.

I can only hope that you are not serious.

[AquilaNegra2]

By re-take them, I don't mean re-qualify for them. Once the blue card is signed off, it's done with, whether they've actually EARNED them or not.

#2 son was awarded Art at camp for about 10 mins worth of work. Left him in a dilemma. He wanted the badge and was counting on it, but knew he didn't earn it. So he asked the SM if he could redo it after camp. We set up a more substantial Art MB clinic where the boys actually learned something and gained some skills. Scouts who hadn't yet doen the badge along with those who had done it at camp, but felt they hadn't really earned it, came and did it right. It was a big success.

[wagionvigil]

By re-take them, I don't mean re-qualify for them. Once the blue card is signed off, it's done with, whether they've actually EARNED them or not.

#2 son was awarded Art at camp for about 10 mins worth of work. Left him in a dilemma. He wanted the badge and was counting on it, but knew he didn't earn it. So he asked the SM if he could redo it after camp. We set up a more substantial Art MB clinic where the boys actually learned something and gained some skills. Scouts who hadn't yet doen the badge along with those who had done it at camp, but felt they hadn't really earned it, came and did it right. It was a big success.

This is not what you said in your Post. You gave the impression that it was common practice to make the Boys redo a MB if the Troop leadership was not happy with who the counselor was.It is not up to anyone in the troop to decide if a by has or has not earned a MB, although I feel your fustration ,it is totally up to the MBC.

[alex gregory]

YOU DON'T "REDO" COMPLETED MERIT BADGES!!!!!

Should the troop practice first aid skills even after badges are earned? Of course.

[Quailman]

Still, if a scout realizes that he did not necessarily meet all the requirements for a merit badge that was signed off at sumer camp, so he wants to go over them again with a more diligent MBC, more power to him.

A boy in my troop came to me to learn more about Bird Study (my specialty) after getting the badge at sumer camp. He said among other things that he did not have to "observe and be able to identify 20 species of wild birds" as required. I spent time with him and another leader on a campout, finding nearly 30 species and covering some other information, with no pressure of having to sing off on anything afterward. Now he has the badge plus the knowledge, and he's planning more birding outings with his family.

[smtroop168]

You should provide this feedback to the Summer Camp. Hard to believe he couldn't find 20 species during camp.

[Quailman]

They could have - I've been to that area and found many more in a few hours - but he said they just didn't venture out to look. Go figure.

[WeeWillie]

Did the SM approve the merit badge prior to the merit badge day? If the SM didn't, then the troop does not have to accept the blue ard or alternate form. Have the Scouts retested with a MBC from your troop or district.

Get the facts from the Scouts who attended regarding the conduct of the MB session. Was each Scout required to demonstate the specified skills.

Write to your district or council advancement committee for a ruling. "A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been EARNED, providing the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge." pg 26 "Advancement Committe Guide" #33088. Do not presume that the other council had an approved MBC. EARNED was highlighted for a reason. If there was a gross violation of BSA advancement policy (individual achievement) then the badge wasn't EARNED. Insist on a written reply. It may not get the MBs diallowed, but it will put both councils on the hot seat to explain why the situation was allowed to occur.

[smtroop168]

Did the SM approve the merit badge prior to the merit badge day? If the SM didn't, then the troop does not have to accept the blue ard or alternate form.

Does work have to be done after the Merit Badge Application is started?
No. Under Boy Scout Advancement, the Four Steps of Advancement section shows that: "1. The Boy Scout learns. 2, The Boy Scout is tested..." (p. 24) [2] Some Merit Badges Require Prior Approval before starting certain requirements. Most requirements have no such requirement. Unless stated otherwise, there is no requirement that work must be done since a merit badge was started, or since becoming a Scout, etc. " Any Boy Scout may earn any merit badge at any time." - Boy Scout Requirements p. 22. No one can add requirements. (p. 26) [2]

In other words a scout can start a MB without a Blue Card. If the scout attended the event, it is likely they had a SM signature on the blue card since they were given a completed one back.

Write to your district or council advancement committee for a ruling. "A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been EARNED, providing the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge." pg 26 "Advancement Committe Guide" #33088. Do not presume that the other council had an approved MBC. EARNED was highlighted for a reason. If there was a gross violation of BSA advancement policy (individual achievement) then the badge wasn't EARNED. Insist on a written reply. It may not get the MBs diallowed, but it will put both councils on the hot seat to explain why the situation was allowed to occur.

Can a merit badge be taken away?
A merit badge cannot be taken away once it has been earned, "provided the counselor is a registered counselor for the merit badge." (p. 26)

Who determines if a MB is earned? The MB Counselor not someone after the fact. It is also extremely unlikely that a MB event would have MBCs that were not registered and approved.

Now...do I think the unit should address this to the appropriate folks? Sure but don't start yanking MBs and making the scouts redo the badge. A good discussion with the troop as a group and with the affected boys at their next SMC could be done.

[WeeWillie]

MB pamphlets are written to be read and understood by Scouts so there is no reason why a Scout can't start work before obtaining the SM's permission via blue card or other means. However, assigning a MBC is a SM responsibility. That is not adding to the requirements because it is clearly stated in the Annual Requirements Handbook. I am extremely skeptical of MB daze, clinics or universities. Before signing a blue card for such an event I would do some checking up to see how it is organized. If I wasn't satisfied, no blue card. There are too many merit badge mills.

I had an ASM do an end run around me and signed his son's blue card. I also had a blue card returned with the signature of another SM from another troop.

If a Scout was not tested on each requirement then the merit badge was not earned. That is not a SM determination which is why a complaint should be forwarded to the District or Council for a decision. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[kwildman]

where is stated that the SM assign the MBC? We typically make the scouts find their MBC. If this is the case how do you handle summer camps? Alot of them are also MB mills and as a SM you have no say over who the counselor is.

[smtroop168]

where is stated that the SM assign the MBC?

Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of Merit Badge Counselors.

This is in the BSA requirements book and where his interpretation comes from.

I am extremely skeptical of MB daze, clinics or universities. Before signing a blue card for such an event I would do some checking up to see how it is organized. If I wasn't satisfied, no blue card.

So you would deny a scout the right to advance based on your interpretation of how an event is organized? If the event is BSA sanctioned, with approved MBCs I don't think you can keep him from attending and earning MBs.

I had an ASM do an end run around me and signed his son's blue card. I also had a blue card returned with the signature of another SM from another troop.

Different issue. The Blue Card doesn't say SM signature, it says Unit Leader. What did the other SM have to say?