Requirement 7 of Citizenship in the Community

[Jean9]

Hi all,
I have a question about requirement 7c of CITC. Does the counselor have to approve the organization before the hours are done or can the scout do the hours before getting approval to contact the organization? I have an Eagle candidate who is really short on time and wants to count hours he did before he talked to me about it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Jeannine

[evmori]

7. Do the following:

1. Choose a charitable organization outside of Scouting that interests you and brings people in your community together to work for the good of your community.
2. Using a variety of resources (including newspapers, fliers and other literature, the Internet, volunteers, and employees of the organization), find out more about this organization.
3. With your counselor's and your parent's approval, contact the organization and find out what young people can do to help. While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization. After your volunteer experience is over, discuss what you have learned with your counselor.

What does the requirement say? To me, and I am a counselor for this badge, the counselor and parent must approve who the volunteer work is done for.

[Jean9]

I agree that we need to approve the group, but does it have to be before the hours are done? I initially read it that we needed to approve the group then the hours could be done, but does it specifically require that or just that the hours be done while the scout is working on the badge?

Jeannine

[Quailman]

If it's a group that you'd approve, then count whatever hours the boy has performed. For example, if he always helps out his church with the weekly homeless dinner, there's no need to say "the clock starts now, since you just discussed it with me." If you're the MBC, use your own judgment.

It makes sense, though, that you bring up this requirement as soon as a boy contacts you to start the MB, so he can get started on it.

[ThunderingWind]

abc123

[smtroop168]

Hi all,
I have a question about requirement 7c of CITC. Does the counselor have to approve the organization before the hours are done or can the scout do the hours before getting approval to contact the organization? I have an Eagle candidate who is really short on time and wants to count hours he did before he talked to me about it. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Jeannine

We've discussed this before. Requirement 7 is designed to build on itself. 7.3 comes after picking 7.1 and researching 7.2 an organization. 7.3 also requires the scout to contact the organization, not just do ad hoc hours.

As this is a Eagle required badge, you can see the method behind the requirements is to aid a scout in learning the process in how to deal with an organization as part of preparation for his Eagle project. Personal Management, Family Life and Communications also fit this mold.

Now...if you are the registered CITC MBC and if you feel the scout has met the requirement and you are not subtracting from the requirement, then you can sign off on it. It all comes down to how you want to treat this scout in relationship to the next. I'm not sure how the scout can do the hours before contacting the organization. The idea is to see what they need now. Curious on how long ago did he do his hours?

[Jean9]

Thanks to all for your replies. This scout is a situation of poor planning and an 18th birthday colliding. The hours were done last October and for a group that he has worked with before. The group has been approved for other boys to use so that is not an issue.
I decided to ask him for documentation and will count the hours because the badge was started under a different counselor who is not available (and probably wouldn't remember since the badge was started in 07). There isn't a place for the counselor to initialize approval till the after the hours are documented so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
Thanks again for the help,
Jeannine

[WeeWillie]

What is so special about this young man that he doesn't have to follow the same rules everyone else does? By your own admission he faiuled to plan. What lesson are you teaching him? Failure is acceptable? What lesson are you teaching other Scouts? Failure is acceptable? ,Eagle Scout is a national symbol of excellence. What happens to our reputation when we allow substandard scouts become Eagle.

There is still time to fix the situation. Make him do it right. Prove it to him and everyone else that he prepared to carry on the legacy of Eagle Scout

[WeeWillie]

What is so special about this young man that he doesn't have to follow the same rules everyone else does? By your own admission he faiuled to plan. What lesson are you teaching him? Failure is acceptable? What lesson are you teaching other Scouts? Failure is acceptable? ,Eagle Scout is a national symbol of excellence. What happens to our reputation when we allow substandard scouts become Eagle.

There is still time to fix the situation. Make him do it right. Prove it to him and everyone else that he prepared to carry on the legacy of Eagle Scout

[Jean9]

I agree that he should have planned better. The issue was not if he did the hours, but if he got approval first. Since the badge was started in October of 07 and I did not become Merit Badge counselor until March of 08, I don't know if he spoke to the other counselor about working with this group for the badge. He says he did and I have to believe him (A Scout is Trustworthy). Accepting these hours does not finish the badge by any means. He still has a lot of work to do so there is not guarantee that he will finish in time.
I asked about this because I wanted to know if having to get approval before the hours were done was required. As we can see from the replies, it can be interpreted differently. I have made it clear that all other boys will have to have 7a signed off before the hours can be done.
I totally agree that Eagle is a symbol of excellence and I want to make sure that it is earned by Scouts that deserve it (my own son is 4 badges and a project from Eagle), but I also don't want to keep a scout from Eagle because he didn't get credit for hours that he should have.
Jeannine

[FrankJ]

I see the the prior approval bit as more of a safety check. If you would have comfortably approved of the organization & the hours, then this is a small bend in the rules.

I know others will disagree, with good intentions, but I sometimes think we get caught up in legalese & forget why we are here in first place.

[Mrw]

I see the the prior approval bit as more of a safety check. If you would have comfortably approved of the organization & the hours, then this is a small bend in the rules.

I know others will disagree, with good intentions, but I sometimes think we get caught up in legalese & forget why we are here in first place.

My take on the situation as well. This is commonly how it works in our area, both with the counselor from our troop and the other guy I have often sent kids to in the past.

[WeeWillie]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions (and lawyers when we stray from the path). Mine is a straight forward interpretation of the requirement. The legalize is being applied by those advocating allowing this Eagle candidate to receive credit for 7c.

What is so special about this young man? The more information Jean6 provides the less compelling the argument. He started this badge in October 07 and still has other requirements to complete? This is not a difficult badge and should not need 18+ months to complete. I know there is no time requirement for MBs, but there are penalties (memories) for waiting so long. This situation could have been addressed in March 08 when you became his MBC. He lost 2.5 months.

How many of the following apply:
a. He started off in a group MB and he fell behind.
b. He has multiple competing activities and Scouting wasn't a priority.
c. This is not the only badge he is behind.
d. The push to complete Eagle Scout is from Mom/Dad. Or as one of my former Scouts put it. " I just want my Old Man off my case."
e. He is basically a nice kid.

If we relied on a Scout is Trustworthy there wouldn't be a need for MBCs. Scouts could just sign off on their own awards. I had two situations were dads pressured their sons to cheat to complete advancement requirements. Both Dads are Eagle Scouts.
We are supposed to be developing character. Character includes accepting responsibility for your decisions. He made his decision, now teach him to accept the responsibility. There is still time to do it right.

I will leave this with two thoughts.
The current economic crisis we face is the result of two much legalize and not enough character!
Strong values, strong leaders, character counts. Refer back to the first thought!

[FrankJ]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions (and lawyers when we stray from the path). Mine is a straight forward interpretation of the requirement. The legalize is being applied by those advocating allowing this Eagle candidate to receive credit for 7c.

I am not advocating for this person to receive credit for 7c. That is for his MBC to decide. You never get the whole story on the internet.

I do see your point (also respect it.) and I do agree if you are willing to look at the world in shades of gray, you have to be careful not to slide down the slope. On the other hand rigid adherence to the written word is only a short step away from dogma & good people doing bad things. (And yes I am assuming you are good people & no, I do not think you are doing bad things)

Strong values, strong leaders, character counts.

Gotta agree with you there!

[Jean9]

Hi all,
Weewillie is very right. C, D and E apply. I am a black and white person most of the time and was frustrated because the requirement was written the way it was. I wish it had been more clear like in Personal Fitness where it says "Before beginning exercises get approval of your plan from your counselor and parent" (sorry if that isn't exact).
I want to thank all of you for your feedback. When we discussed this scout last night we found out that he didn't see the MBC for personal fitness before doing the exercises. A couple of people (including my DH, who is committee chair) argued about the spirit of the law vs the letter. They weren't trying to skirt the rules, just trying to help this scout as much as they could. As I sat there arguing for the letter of the law, the words "Eagle is a national symbol of excellence" kept running through my mind. We were setting precedence. I said that my son didn't have see the counselor before exercising and was told that he did. I then said not if we let this pass.
It is hard because we grow so attached to these kids as we watch them grow up and just don't want to see them hurt.
Thanks again for all your help. It is great to have a forum like this to discuss issues like this.
Jeannine

[smtroop168]

Hi all,
Weewillie is very right. C, D and E apply. I am a black and white person most of the time and was frustrated because the requirement was written the way it was. I wish it had been more clear like in Personal Fitness where it says "Before beginning exercises get approval of your plan from your counselor and parent" (sorry if that isn't exact).
I want to thank all of you for your feedback. When we discussed this scout last night we found out that he didn't see the MBC for personal fitness before doing the exercises. A couple of people (including my DH, who is committee chair) argued about the spirit of the law vs the letter. They weren't trying to skirt the rules, just trying to help this scout as much as they could. As I sat there arguing for the letter of the law, the words "Eagle is a national symbol of excellence" kept running through my mind. We were setting precedence. I said that my son didn't have see the counselor before exercising and was told that he did. I then said not if we let this pass.
It is hard because we grow so attached to these kids as we watch them grow up and just don't want to see them hurt.
Thanks again for all your help. It is great to have a forum like this to discuss issues like this.
Jeannine

There is a whole listing of MBs on this site which show which require prior counselor approval before doing the requirement. Including 4b and 5 of CITC.

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Me ... r_Approval

Hours aside, what did he do to find (7.1) and research (7.2) the organization?

Also curious on what organization did he do his ESLP for?

[Jean9]

Hi all,
He does a lot of work for the Lion's Club in town and has been working with them for a while. He hasn't done the research yet but I am sure he would just go on line and ask at the club.
Thanks so much for the list of preapprovals needed. That makes my my job a lot easier.
Jeannine

[FrankJ]

So if a scout is very active in a community organization, say since Cubs. He starts working on Cit in community, does he need to pick another org to requirement 7 for? Or do you let him count hours after he gets permission. (Not necessarily Jeannine's scout)

Total irrelevant observation: If a scout is following the scout law (obedient & all that) Would not he get his parents permission for whatever he does? Kinda like the scouting definition of active.

[WeeWillie]

Several years ago I had a 17+ Life Scout. He was a nice kid, showed up for meetings and events, but pretty much meandered through Scouts. He decided that since he stayed in Scouts so long, he might as well make Eagle, He had 5 ER MBs and his ELSP to complete. We had a SMC and mapped out a plan, lined up MBCs, and set up a follow up meeting. The next month we met again and he didn't meet any of the milestones. We revised the plan and agreed to meet again. The next month ditto results at which time I told him that there wiould be no more SMCs until he completed the milestones. The next month he showed up and I turned him away. He got the message. We met before meetings, after church, during Girl Scout meetings (his sisters, my daughter). (always another adult present). He met every requirement as written. I added nothing, deleted nothing. So did his MBCs. We could have felt sorry for him and he would have gotten his Eagle, instead we held him to the requirements. He still got his Eagle, but he also got pride and character.

If a Scout is active with a charitable organization, there is no reason to find another. 7A & B still apply. He may not know very much about the organization he is supporting

[ScoutMomGWRC]

There is a whole listing of MBs on this site which show which require prior counselor approval before doing the requirement. Including 4b and 5 of CITC.

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Me ... r_Approval

I know this is an old thread.... but I came here looking for this link.

I am a Family Life MBC.

Unless I missed it or if requirements were not the same when this link was created...
The Family Life has requirements needing prior approval.

Can you tell me how to contact the person that needs to update this link? Thank you.

#4 With the approval of your parents or guardians and your merit badge counselor, decide on and carry out a project that you would do around the home that would benefit your family. Submit a report to your merit badge counselor outlining how the project benefited your family.

#6 Do the following:
a. Discuss with your merit badge counselor how to plan and carry out a family meeting.