Eagle Rank and NOT Adding To The Requirements

[Hamish17]

Often times in this forum I see mention of not adding to requirements for rank advancement or a merit badge. So far, so good. Well now, my son just advanced to Life - I'm fat and happy; until I read the "EAGLE SCOUT RANK APPLICATION". Requirement #2 - "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf". Then asks for names etc of parents, religious, educational, employer(if any) and two others. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THE SECOND SENTENCE (in the quote) ON PAGE 446 OF MY SCOUT HANDBOOK! Further, Requirement #6 - "Attach to this application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose and a listing of positions held in your religious institution, school, camp, community, or other organizations during which you demonstrated leadership skills. Include honors and awards received during this service. Take part in a Scoutmaster conference with your unit leader". I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON PAGE 447 #6 OF THE SCOUT HANDBOOK EXCEPT - "TAKE PART IN A SCOUTMASTER CONFERENCE."

Seems to me a lot has been added to the requirements. Am I missing something here? If these were optional - no problem, but it sure seems to me something been added. The application document I am refering to has the # 58-728 on the back page in the lower left corner. Thanks!

[Mick Scouter]

Good question. I too just had a son turn life. I will look forward to the discussion. I think I will go take a look and not offer a comment at this time.

[vpalango]

Often times in this forum I see mention of not adding to requirements for rank advancement or a merit badge. So far, so good. Well now, my son just advanced to Life - I'm fat and happy; until I read the "EAGLE SCOUT RANK APPLICATION". Requirement #2 - "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf". Then asks for names etc of parents, religious, educational, employer(if any) and two others. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THE SECOND SENTENCE (in the quote) ON PAGE 446 OF MY SCOUT HANDBOOK! Further, Requirement #6 - "Attach to this application a statement of your ambitions and life purpose and a listing of positions held in your religious institution, school, camp, community, or other organizations during which you demonstrated leadership skills. Include honors and awards received during this service. Take part in a Scoutmaster conference with your unit leader". I DON'T SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON PAGE 447 #6 OF THE SCOUT HANDBOOK EXCEPT - "TAKE PART IN A SCOUTMASTER CONFERENCE."

Seems to me a lot has been added to the requirements. Am I missing something here? If these were optional - no problem, but it sure seems to me something been added. The application document I am refering to has the # 58-728 on the back page in the lower left corner. Thanks!

I'm going to adress this from the point of view of a grown up eagle, who has sat on some Eagle BORs....

In my opinion, the items on the Eagle Application are both a reflection of the requirements, as well as making sure a prospective Eagle is truely ready and frankly worthy of eagle rank.

When asking a scout to provide references, there isn't a new or added requirement here. In this case, the application is simply (IMHO) spelling out how the scout is required to "demonstrate" scout spirit for the eagle rank. What better way to demonstrate something like scout spirit than asking a scout to provide references who will speak/write on thier behalf.

In terms of Part 6, I still have no problem with this... It isn't explicitly spelled out in the requirements for Eagle, but the Scout again must pass both a Scoutmasters Conference, as well as an Eagle BOR. This is a tool, in my experience, for the Eagle BOR to get some background on the candidate that is coming before them, and to allow the conversation to be meaningful for both the Board and the Scout. It also allows the Scoutmaster to have one last evaluation, in written form, of how the scout has progressed, and that they are ready for the HONOR that it is to become an Eagle.

Comming back to the BOR issue... Remember, prior to Eagle, the BOR members were usually committee members of the troop, in which case, they already have some experience with the boy in question when he goes before them. With an Eagle BOR, the members of the board usually have NO experience with the boy. In my opinion, the written statement gives the BOR enough background to do the job of the board effectively.

So again, just my opinion here, the Eagle Scout Application doesn't add any requirements. It just spells out, exactly how the prospecitve Eagle must demonstrate that he has fulfilled the requirements.

YIS,

[Hamish17]

vpalango. Thanks for your observations and input. I basically agree with your explanation and reasons the items are on the application. My problem is - WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE SCOUT HANDBOOK, instead of on a application? In my thought process if their are additional items a Scout must do; then those ARE additional requirements, no matter what name or explanation you place on them.

Again, I do agree with you reasoning, explanation and logic. Thanks again.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Although I agree with you that the requirements on the Eagle Application form are not listed in the handbook and it would be quite simple to include a line stating "fill out an Eagle Application Form" which would at least cover what ever is required on the form. This could be placed prior to having the SM conference.
I too agree with what vpalango has said. I would add to his thoughts that - the requirements in the handbook are what a scout needs to do within his troop and the Application form is looking for a scout that has completed all requirements with his troop, to now look a little bit more inside, as an individual. Making the scout take a personnel inventory so to speak, is another example of the type of growth one usually thinks of when thinking of what an Eagle Scout is. This also gives Nationals, the council and the councils board an opportunity to see what young boys/adults are taking with them from the scouting program. How they might use values they've learned from they're journey in their future.
When my boys reached this point, I was pleased at another chance for them to be forced into reaching out to others for the references. Scouting provided them with so many experiences of speaking with adults and in this case it was about themselves, which doesn't come easy for most. This is another valuble asset for them to learn from. All part of the process.

[evmori]

Look at it like applying for a job. There are requirements for the job then there is required information needed on the application for the job and some of this information is not part of the requirements.

Hope this helps.

[ASM-142]

Vpalango wrote:

When asking a scout to provide references, there isn't a new or added requirement here. In this case, the application is simply (IMHO) spelling out how the scout is required to "demonstrate" scout spirit for the eagle rank. What better way to demonstrate something like scout spirit than asking a scout to provide references who will speak/write on thier behalf.

The only issue I see with this on the BOR is that the SM signs off on Scout Spirit. So in reality the BOR is questioning the SM and not the scout

[FrankJ]

Here is a link from the national web site to how BSA thinks a BOR should be conducted. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/suppl ... index.html It doesn't answer specifically the question about requiring letters & so on, but it does state that it should be conducted in friendly manner. By the time a scout get to a board for advancement, eagle or otherwise, he should be ready and passing it almost a formality. I am not saying that the board should be a rubber stamp, but if regularly fails the candidates that comes before it, there are deeper problems in the troop or review process.

On requiring letter of reference. That is a requirement from national (on the eagle application) so the rule about units & council not changing or adding to the requirements really doesn't apply

[Scouting179]

VPLANGO: Well said.

Being an Eagle, the father of an Eagle, and having sat on many Eagle BORs in my own troop and as a District rep, I have no problem with any of this.

In addition to meeting the letter of the law, keep in mind that being an Eagle Scout is a way of life. This is why we talk about "the Spirit of the Eagle" in Scouting. BORs are the last chance to ensure the candidate has met the requirements and understands the obligations and expectations that come with "wearing the red, white, and blue".

The proper way to conduct BORs of any rank is covered in the Advancment Guide and none of it has changed significantly in several years. References, what I call the "life goals" statement, etc have been around a long time. So while it may not be in the handbook, this is covered in the advancement guide.

[twilightann]

The Eagle Bor and application go to people that often may not be familar with the Eagle candidate. So the application requires more info ie reference letters and the statement from the boy on life ambitions and such. I agree with the previous statement of comparing it to a job application. What better way for these people to get to know the canidate than to have this extra info. As advancement coordinator in our troop as soon as the boy gets his life rank I and the SM sit down with the boy and family and go over what he has to look forward to as a process for his project and in the application.

[evmori]

The Eagle Application doesn't require reference letters. It requires the names of people who would be willing to give a reference. Requiring reference letters would be adding to the requirements.

[FrankJ]

"5) When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center."

This come from the Eagle leadership work book on the BSA web site. although it is not part of the application, it says it is up to the council on how to verify references. I am all for not adding requirements or troop "rules" to the advancement process, but in this case it is done by national for a good reason. The members of the BOR will not necassarily have direct experience with the scout. The hard facts should have already been checked. The BOR is asked to determine the intangible qualities that make a Eagle.

[Mrw]

For our troop, I send requests for recommmendation letters to the references the scout provides to me. When he has received 5 back, he is ready to get the Eagle app downtown to Council. I usually send 8-9 letters requests as some people are really slow.

For my older son, our CC (and at the time UC) showed up to sit on the Eagle BOR with a recommendation letter that had been requested three months before. Fortunately, we had a more timely response from others and it hadn't held us back.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

For our troop, I send requests for recommmendation letters to the references the scout provides to me. When he has received 5 back, he is ready to get the Eagle app downtown to Council.

This is adding to the requirements? To hold him back until letters are received which are not required in the first place! There is no requirement for you to requests the letters?

[ASM-142]

I have a question about reference letters. Who should be receiving thema nd reading them. In my troop they have been read/reviewed during the Eagle BOR in the past. However, if these letters are only requested by council after the application is completed then this does not make sense.

[FrankJ]

This is all in the Eagle leadership work book put out by BSA. The council is responible for checking references by a method it chooses. The reports are confidental & should be seen only by the BOR & never by the scout. The scout should not be involved in collecting the information other than providing the references & letting the references know that they have been put on the application.

All this is part of the application process before the BOR.

[PaulSWolf]

I have a question about reference letters. Who should be receiving them and reading them. In my troop they have been read/reviewed during the Eagle BOR in the past. However, if these letters are only requested by council after the application is completed then this does not make sense.

Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures: The 12 Steps From Life to Eagle

(7) ... Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review.
...
(11) ... The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook and references are retained by the council. The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook may be returned to the Scout after council approval.

The references (either letters or phone call log sheets) are obtained BEFORE the BoR, reviewed by the members when they meet with the candidate, then sent back to the Council office with the application for final processing.

As for who gets them, in many cases, either the Scout gves the references a form letter, prepared by the Council, the SM mails them after the Scout gives him the application to file, or Council mails the letters to the listed references after the application is received at the Council office for processing BEFORE the BoR. Only the members of the BoR should read them.

Remember, the Council gets the application both before and after the BoR meets - BEFORE the BoR to check for proper dates, merit badges, etc., and AFTER the BoR for certification, forwarding to National, and recording the advancement.

[Mrw]

As Paul says, the letters go down with the application.

On the Eagle BOR's I have sat on, about half of the Council reps who sit on the board have opened and read them before they come and the others bring them sealaed to the BOR and they are passed around before the boy is interviewed.

If I recall correctly, the instructions that come with the application and workbook packet from Council specifies the letters. They can be from the references listed on the Eagle app or from someone else. For example, my son finished his project and application mid-summer. He listed a reference from school, but there was no really effective way to contact the guy in the middle of the summer.

[evmori]

Listing references on the application is the Scout's job. Checking them by requesting letters, making phone calls, etc. is the responsibility of the council. Requiring the Scout to get reference letters before forwarding the application to council is adding to the requirements & should be stopped!

[ASM-142]

Remember, the Council gets the application both before and after the BoR meets - BEFORE the BoR to check for proper dates, merit badges, etc., and AFTER the BoR for certification, forwarding to National, and recording the advancement.

Now I see what the problem is. The Eagle Applications from my troop have only be sent to council after the BOR. An advancement report from the troop is used to verify MBs.

The other problem with the reference letters is that they have always beeen requested by the scout and mailed to the CC.

I will talk to the CC and get this process turned around.

Thanks for the help.