What Would You Do?

[mt_goodrich]

Without going into great detail, there is a boy registered with my troop that is about two months away from his 18th birthday. He has three remaining merit badges (Swimming or Hiking or Cycling, Communications & Personal Management). He has yet to get a project approved. He has a partial in Personal Management and could finish it up. He has been automatically re-registered every year.

My problem with this young man is that he has not come to a meeting or participated in any activities for the past year. He has been a Life Scout now for nearly two years. Now, two months before he turns 18, he is suddenly interested in earning Eagle....actually, it is his father pushing him to earn his Eagle.

Oh...one more bit of information: Boy spent two months this summer at an Outward Bound-type program for substance abuse (alcohol & marijuana) and behavioral problems. Father told me the day after that he sent his son away. Said his son was living an immoral lifestyle (drinking, smoking, and engaging in sexual activities).

Unfortunately, he is back to running with the same crowd that got him into trouble to begin with.

I do not believe this young man to be deserving of being an Eagle Scout and I have decided that I will not sign off on anything for this boy. If he wants to appeal anything, fine by me, but I refuse to sign anything giving the impression that I support him in this.

I hope and pray this boy will clean up his life and get back on the right path, but I cannot condone what he has done.

Am I being too harsh? What would you or what have you done in this situation?

[wagionvigil]

I agree with you Mike. If you notified your council of this young mans activities they would remove him from the BSA I am quite sure.

[ronin718]

Sounds like you must be in an LDS unit based on the automatic registration.

My first reaction is you don't have much to be concerned with. Three Eagle MBs to go, no Eagle Project, and I'm betting that the partial on the Pers Mgmt MB doesn't have the tracking of finances done yet. I don't see this young man getting things done without a lot of pencil-whipping.

Next reaction, it's too early to make the judgement. Wait until the SM Conference and BoR. Give the young man the benefit of the doubt. Yes, he may be back hanging with the group that he got in trouble with, but that doesn't mean he's getting in trouble again. I don't know how many bars I've been in without having a drink. Does that make me an alcoholic? No.

Finally, assuming that yours is an LDS unit, get the YMP and Bishop involved. Let them know of your concerns. They might be able to relieve you of this burden.

[FieldSports]

Wow that is an interesting situation.

Wood Badge goes to the heart of Servant Leadership.

Please excuse me for playing a little Devils advict first.

Reframing your question and facts. You have a young man in your unit. He is currently 17, and I'll assume you have known him for a minimum of three, maybe more years (could be upwards of six years). You have continued to collect his money to be in the program all this time and had limited issues. You collected his money for this year (which is good to December (more than 3 months away). There is no "automatic renewal". You did not state any behavior problems directly or currently with the unit. I would guess that it is only within the last year or year and half that his life choices have become an issue. I will assume you did not know this, because being the great scoutmaster you are, you would have already been talking and counseling the young man. You were told by the father that he is not going down the desired path of life. His father has been proactive and has provided counseling and services to help him. Again, you were not aware of this until the father told you in order to help his son and provide you with information to help. The young man is now interested in setting a goal of reaching Eagle. You believe that his father is motivating him and this is shocking to you that parents would do this. Now, he is back with all his old friends. You can only guess that he is back to his evil, morally corrupt and slovenly ways (but have never personally wittnessed anything). All your perfect kids in the unit will be lead down the path of distruction in the next two months due to you helping him. Therefore, he is not deserving of your attention, time or energy. You want to kick him out, even though he is registered and is now attending meetings. You have chosen not to follow the guidelines to being a leader, because you know better. You have prayed on this and want the young man to follow the right path, but you cannot forgive a sixteen year old for bad choices in the past. He must be punished. What to do Hopefully the answer is clearer to you.

Now the more practical side of me. Scoutmaster conference with the parent there. Stick to the scout law and oath and application in his life. Create a plan for success, but let him know it is his actions and call on reaching it. Keep your personal opinion in check and help this young man succeed. Servant leadership is measured by the success of other that you help. Otherwise, why are YOU staying in Scouting?

[wagionvigil]

As an Eagle scout (Class of 64) we are expected to be the best of the best. Todays entitlement attitude just galls me. SUre if a kid messes up some you can give him some slack but in some cases no matter what is done it is too late. I was an educator for 35 years and in a position to recommend treatment expulsion etc. My attitude about a potential Eagle Scout is this if what they did could have or did lead to Jail Time they are off my help list. I do not want them compared to me or other Eagles. Becasue when they do finally do something and they probably will the first thing that will be said is he was an Eagle Scout.
I truly hope this young man has changed but experience tells me otherwise. I hope he proves me wrong. Now the option I would consider is getting in Venturing and working on he Ranger Award. He has until age 21 to prove himself.

[alex gregory]

Am I being too harsh? What would you or what have you done in this situation?

Yes. You are.

Your job is not to sit in judgment of this kid but to help him through his last two months of scouting. What kid needs scouting more than this kid?

Apparently my original response was to blunt.

[wagionvigil]

Alex,
Knowing the background of this kid would you take him on a camping trip? Just curious.
I also believe you are correct he needs scouts but he does not need to be an Eagle. He gave that up.

I got burned on this a few years ago when I tried to give a troubled kid a chance and that does influence my thinking. The young man assulted a couple of the scouts then after we came home tried to kill his parents while they slept.

[FieldSports]

I have taken a lot of young man camping (and even to Jamboree) who were worse then a young man who is smoking, drinking and has a girl. Have they all worked out? Nope. Will I stop trying? Absolutely, 100% NOT! This is a young man who needs strong guidance from men with Character. We have to be the Best of the Best as leaders. It is our moral obligation and job to take on these youth. We are some of the front line soldiers, stopping the decline.

This is not entitlement. He has taken a two month course to correct his actions, he is back in Scouting and wanting to progress. I have read all your other posts, you guys are not this harsh.

I too have had to deal with a very bad seed (just know there will come a day with a police bulletin with his name on it). I turned bitter and thought long and hard about leaving Scouts. Instead I took a hard look at myself and my Character and redoubled my efforts to became the best leader. Send him my way, I live for the stories of succusses and how I played a role.

Also, what if the something he does is, learn to be a responsible man. Goes to college and becomes a doctor. Saves lifes and tells everyone, the turning point was the Scoutmaster who got him to Eagle.

Violence is an immediate trip home and a parent committee review. He was not violent.

Wagionvigil, if jail time is the new litmus test. I ask everyone to answer this: Ever had a couple of drinks of alcohol and gone out into the public (or worse drove)? Ever exceed the speed limit by more than 25MPH? Ever have to pee so bad that you stopped along the road? Ever lied on your taxes? Ever swatted your kids and left a red mark? Ever left a store when the cashier gave you too much change? Ever leave your firearm unsecured? (Think I just kicked out 90% of the leaders)

I don't accept or condone his actions. If he did nothing to correct it or is actively continuing, then you have every right to send him packing. Hence the Scoutmaster conference to set the boundries.

[Mrw]

As far as you know, does he really have the time and ability to finish an entire project and three merit badges in the two months he has left?

If he is really earnest about finishing, I would sit him down now and have a discussion where I set out exactly what I expect to see from him, in and out of scouts, for the next few months. Be very specific! That leaves the ball squarely in his court.

If he is running with the wrong crowd and is not personally as interested in earning Eagle as his father is, he will wash out quickly.

[mt_goodrich]

I've read thru everyone's posts and truly appreciate everyone's point of view. Some of you have really given me some things to think about and I thank you for that.

Yes..the is an LDS unit. Every young man is automatically registered that is on the Church rolls, whether they are active or not in the Church.

As Mrw has asked..."As far as you know, does he really have the time and ability to finish an entire project and three merit badges in the two months he has left?" He has made no effort to ask for the names of merit badge counselors for the remaining merit badges. His father stated that while young man was gone, he hiked over 100 miles and that should be enough to earn the Hiking Merit Badge and wanted the assistant Scoutmaster to sign off on the blue card that the young man completed it. Assistant SM refused and father got upset. Said he would find someone who would sign it.

I still have no clue what project he has in mind, or should I say his father has in mind. Father told me "its been approved...just need to write up the proposal". I told him it needed my signature and he said that the previous Scoutmaster verbally approved it and he would get his signature if he had to....and would get signature of previous committee chairman.

To be honest, I really don't think the boy care about finishing this for himself. I think young man is meeting with me and the advancement person tomorrow because his father is forcing him to. He has stated to the Advancement Chairperson that he really doesn't care, but his dad is pressuring him to make an effort or he will take away his car.

His first meeting back was last week. He came into the meeting (not wearing a uniform and talking on his cell phone). He stayed for a few minutes and then walked out. I asked where was going and he said "gotta take this call" and he didn't come back.

I have a meeting with this young man tomorrow, along with our advancement chairperson. Some of the items you all have pointed out will most definitely help me in the way I approach this.

Some of the things that have come to my mind as I have been wrestling with this.

REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life...... He has clearly failed to do so.

He has not fulfilled requirement #4:

REQUIREMENT 4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility..... He has clearly failed to do so. He hasn't been to any troop meetings or troop activities since May 2007. He has not made himself available for any elections that the troop has held.

Let's say he does complete everything in two months. How can I sign his application when I know he did not fulfill those two requirement?

My question is: What is my obligation to the rest of the troop who have done the right things and have lived up to the Scout Oath and Scout Law? What is my obligation to the Boy Scouts of America. But then, I have an obligation to help this young man and try to be a guiding force for him.

I know that no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. However, there are consequences to the mistakes we've made.

Bishop and YM President are aware of the situation and said they would back me with whatever decision is made.

The boy's father is doing all the talking...all of the leg work....and carrying around his Scout book and a ziplock bag full of blue cards and merit badge cards.

I've been praying about this and have yet to come up with an answer. Need to go do some more praying.

Ahhh....and they said "Only an hour a week"

[scoutaholic]

REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life...... He has clearly failed to do so.

He has not fulfilled requirement #4:

REQUIREMENT 4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility..... He has clearly failed to do so. He hasn't been to any troop meetings or troop activities since May 2007. He has not made himself available for any elections that the troop has held.
...

Just this information is enough to make your decision/job easy. He can't possibly serve 6 months in a position of responsibility all in the 2 months he has. Unless he served at least 4 months after earning life and before his 'sabatical' (and can document the position and dates for the eagle application), the case is closed. It can't be done. (Maybe if he were to serve in 4 positions concurrently for the next 7 weeks it would total the 6 months, but I don't think anyone here or at the BSA offices would buy that interpretation of the requirement.)

I had a parent a few years ago who reallized that little Johnny couldn't finish by his birthday. In this case there had been medical issues that had kept him from working on it for 1.5-2 years. Mom did all the legwork and collected all the paperwork to have her son certified as a disabled scout. Then he didn't have to meet the birthday deadline. At first she told him that she had gotten a 6-month extension, and the 6 months came and went with no progress. The boy is now 19.5, and no closer to Eagle than he was the week before he turned 18.

As far as his past that doesn't 'Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life'. It doesn't say live perfectly for a given time period. If he can do this for the next 2 months, he has filled this requirement. You would need to talk with him now about exactly what his life should look like for the next few months.

[Bill Pitcher]

mt_goodrich: You've got it right. If he can't fulfill requirements #2 and #4, then he's done. But a meeting with he and his Dad is in order. Have the AC and CC with you to indicate that the Troop Committee is with you on this, and let them both know what the requirements are. The project is not the only thing he has to complete here. Ask the candidate what HE thinks it means to him, his family and the Troop if he becomes an Eagle Scout and what his obligations are IF he becomes one (I' like to be a fly on the wall to hear his response)!
Yes, there have been some great posts on this topic, but wre must remember that we are volunteers, and NOT psycologists. It's not our job to correct every family's bad parenting or a child's bad decision making. Yet, we do it ALL the time. In this case, it is unfair for the Troop to sign of on his application and send him on to an EBoR. They rely on YOU and the COMMITTEE's verifying that he has lived his life according to the SO and SL, and has held a leadership position. The final SM conference will be interesting! My guess is he won't complete the MB's and complete a substantial leadership project that HE LEADS!!!
Good luck and keep us posted.

[WeeWillie]

"His first meeting back was last week. He came into the meeting (not wearing a uniform and talking on his cell phone). He stayed for a few minutes and then walked out. I asked where was going and he said "gotta take this call" and he didn't come back."

A Scout is Trustworthy. Trustworthy is the most fundemental concept of honor. His first meeting back and he is lying to you!

Being a leader means being judgemental and having the courage of conviction. A Scout is Brave.

Eagle Scout is a legacy and we as leaders are responsible to past present and future Eagles to see that legacy preserved.

[wagionvigil]

Have you ever noticed in post on subjects like this the guys that are Eagle have a little different twist on these items?

It is the Scouts responsibility to get it done.

[Mrw]

Have you ever noticed in post on subjects like this the guys that are Eagle have a little different twist on these items?

It is the Scouts responsibility to get it done.

I said the same thing about it being the Scout's responsibility to get it done and demonstrate his desire and ability to live up to the requirements and I would never qualify as Eagle!!!!

Back to the point though, when you sit down with the son and the dad, make sure they understand that you are the current SM and committee members, and they need you to sign off on things. The prior SM's signature will not fly with Council as he is not the prpoer person listed on the charter. That eliminates Dad's ability to pull rank on you.

If there is a MBC willing to sign off on the hiking MB because DAD says so, they should never have a boy sent to them again. If the boy can tell the MBC when and where he went on the qualifying hikes, then maybe he does deserve the badge.

If he cannot prove the POR from before his leave of absense though, he is dead in the water. Can't be done and they might as well know that up front.

I would go into this meeting with the attitude that "I want to help little Johnny here to finish this, but I have some very grave concerns about whether these requirements can be completed in the time he has left." It will take a bit of the angry wind out of Dad's sails if he does not see you as against his son frmo the second you walk in the door.

[smtroop168]

Obviously this boy has a number of issues to resolve in his life besides scouts.

My recommendation is to take the emotion out of it and factually go through the remaining requirements one by one:

POR: Any evidence that he was ever in a POR since becoming a Life Scout? If he was in a position on paper but never performed the duties and was never removed from the position, he could get this signed off. (We've had the discussion of Actively serving on the forum)

MBs: Remember he doesn't need a Blue Card to "start a MB". He does need to complete the requirements however. I know you're not the MBC and it's their call on whether to accept "credible evidence of completion" but I would hone in on:

Hiking: #4. After each of the hikes (or during each hike if on one continuous "trek") in requirements 5 and 6, write a short report of your experience. Give dates and descriptions of routes covered, the weather, and interesting things you saw. Share this report with your merit badge counselor. Does he have the written reports?"

Communications: # 7. Plan a troop court of honor or campfire program. Have the patrol leaders' council approve it, then write the script and prepare the program. Serve as master of ceremonies. Does he have a copy of the script he prepared?

PM: 8. Do the following:
a. Prepare a budget reflecting your expected income (allowance, gifts, wages), expenses, and savings. Track your actual income, expenses, and savings for 13 consecutive weeks.
Does he have his budget to show completion?

Eagle Project: If he thinks he has a "verbally" approved project by the old SM, then ask the old SM if he agrees. What is his take on this? Also just because the troop and committee "approves" the EP, he still needs District approval as well as the project sponsor. My guess is the project sponsor gave up on him a long time ago and someone else may have done the project already. I am currently working with 2 scouts from a LDS church and it's been 6 months since thay started working on their write ups.

My guess is that this will take care of your issue and you don't even need to get into a Scout Spirit discussion. You can also ask for help from your District Advancement Chairman. We all have to ensure that Eagle Scout is earned and that standards remain high.

[FrankJ]

Verbal approval of a project concept is a little different than a signature on the completed workbook. It is not approved until the paper work is done. While it is important to honor the commitments of a previous SM, he should not have & probably didn't give final approval without paper work.

It sound like dad want to earn eagle more than his son.


BTW I am not nor ever will be an eagle scout

[RWSmith]

Knowing the background of this kid would you take him on a camping trip? Just curious.

It's not up to you or me to decide if any kid deserves to be an Eagle or a scout. Our job is to verify that he has satisfied the requirements, and help along the way. I agreed to be help all the kids in my troop, even the kids I don't like or respect.

This kid has two months left in scouting and 3 merit badges to go, none of the merit badges need to be on troop outings. Assuming his 90-day budget requirment for Personal Mgt is met he can still finish his Eagle requirements before turning age 18. With some heroic effort on the part of the scout it can maybe get done. If he can turn it around and get it down then this boy has shown me that he can live up to scouting standards. At least let the boy try and help him.

[wagionvigil]

You answered without answering. I will agree let the "scout" set it up and do it. Keep dad away and see what happens. I still stick to my point that the council would boot him if notified.Unless LDS Troops have special rules when it come to things like this.

[smtroop168]

This kid has two months left in scouting and 3 merit badges to go, none of the merit badges need to be on troop outings.

Actually Communications #7 is done with the troop.

My guess is the POR will be the requirement he cannot complete.