Only Three BORS per Year??

[smtroop168]

[

A great example is my son. He came home from summer camp as a 1st class scout including having his SMC and BOR at camp. BUT ... he could not pass the swim test yet. So, how did he get advanced? My response was two fold. #1 Talk to the troop leaders to see what happened. We can probably do something better. #2 Bring my son to the YMCA and get him swimming. The one thing I won't do is take away his accomplishment.

And your son said to the SM at his SMC...."I didn't pass the swim test but Johnny signed me off. I don't think that's right so let me go try and pass before I get a BOR"

[alex gregory]

BORS for merit badges?!? What an awful thing to do to a Scout.

Of course you can (and should) discuss with a Scout at the BOR what he enjoyed, disliked etc. about merit badges he has earned, but the BOR does not get to decide whether or not Junior has earned a merit badge - that's up to the MBC.

[Fred Johnson]

[

A great example is my son. He came home from summer camp as a 1st class scout including having his SMC and BOR at camp. BUT ... he could not pass the swim test yet. So, how did he get advanced? My response was two fold. #1 Talk to the troop leaders to see what happened. We can probably do something better. #2 Bring my son to the YMCA and get him swimming. The one thing I won't do is take away his accomplishment.

And your son said to the SM at his SMC...."I didn't pass the swim test but Johnny signed me off. I don't think that's right so let me go try and pass before I get a BOR"

That son of mine was 11 years old, six months in boy scouting and a bit of a space cadet. I suspect he saw everything signed off and asked for a SMC ... OR someone else asked him his progress and a SMC happened. I doubt if the question ever came up or he even realized the issue. I only recognized the issue because I've been trying to get him to swim for years.

[FrankJ]

Two different situations:

Merit badges: the MBC is the final & only judge if the requirements are met. Hopefully he is actually going by the requirements, nothing more, nothing less.

Rank requirements: The SM controls who can sign for what & when. Including parents signing off (or not) son's requirement. Up to the BOR for the rank the SM can decide if the requirement is met. Carried too for it might get into the realm of retesting, but the SM deserves a little lee way here. Ranks are subject to BORs

[smtroop168]

[

A great example is my son. He came home from summer camp as a 1st class scout including having his SMC and BOR at camp. BUT ... he could not pass the swim test yet. So, how did he get advanced? My response was two fold. #1 Talk to the troop leaders to see what happened. We can probably do something better. #2 Bring my son to the YMCA and get him swimming. The one thing I won't do is take away his accomplishment.

And your son said to the SM at his SMC...."I didn't pass the swim test but Johnny signed me off. I don't think that's right so let me go try and pass before I get a BOR"

That son of mine was 11 years old, six months in boy scouting and a bit of a space cadet. I suspect he saw everything signed off and asked for a SMC ... OR someone else asked him his progress and a SMC happened. I doubt if the question ever came up or he even realized the issue. I only recognized the issue because I've been trying to get him to swim for years.

Not picking on you or your son but you need to figure out how your unit (SM or Comm since he also had a BOR) that has an 11 Y/O, 1st 6 months in scouting at his 1st summer camp could have no idea that he was a non-swimmer. Didn't they see that at the swim test? Completing all 3 rank requirements in 6 months (including 10 troop events - and 3 campouts) is extremely rare in my experience. Also if he couldn't pass the swim test, 2nd class swimming would also be hard to do.

[Fred Johnson]

The #s do seem off. But he attended the March (new scout camp out), April, May, June, July and also the August week long summer camp. Two service clean ups at church. A merit badge special event. I think they had some activities too. Didn't miss anything. 6 campouts + 2 clean ups + 1 merit badge event + ???

The combination of him being quiet and the troop being very boy run is probably why the SMC and BOR didn't know about the swim test.

[smtroop168]

The #s do seem off. But he attended the March (new scout camp out), April, May, June, July and also the August week long summer camp. Two service clean ups at church. A merit badge special event. I think they had some activities too. Didn't miss anything. 6 campouts + 2 clean ups + 1 merit badge event + ???

The combination of him being quiet and the troop being very boy run is probably why the SMC and BOR didn't know about the swim test.

This is still July.

Were the SM and CMs at summer camp???? What camp did you go to????

[evmori]

OK...How about this then...........When the boy comes back to turn in his blue card (or whatever documentation is used in your Troop/District/Council since blue cards are not 100% required) to the Advancement person designated to receive said documentation, this designated person asks the same questions of the Scout.

Same questions being asked to see if the Counselor is doing their job properly just not labeled a BOR.

So, if the same questions are being asked, who cares when they are being asked? The information given is not beign used to hold the boy up, afterall, the CoH is not tomorrow (guessing here). If an issue arises with
the questioning, the Troop has time to figure it out.

I have asked the "So what did you learn by taking MB ABC" question in a BOR. Not to re-test but to see that the boy can communicate. And I generally tell the boy that I am now going to ask questions that help us adults learn how we may make the Troop/Scouting better.

What questions are you asking? It isn't up to the Troop to determine if the Scout earned the badge! It is up to the counselor. And if you feel a counselor isn't doing their job, there are channels for that, but grilling the Scout isn't one of them. You are doing the Scouts a great disservice.

[FrankJ]

You can ask those questions without grilling the scout. Most people appreciate that their opinions are valued. None of this is supposed to be adversarial. What you cannot do is make awarding the badge dependent on the answers.

[ThunderingWind]

What questions are you asking? It isn't up to the Troop to determine if the Scout earned the badge! It is up to the counselor. And if you feel a counselor isn't doing their job, there are channels for that, but grilling the Scout isn't one of them. You are doing the Scouts a great disservice.

I ask things like:

What Merit Badge did you enjoy earning the most/least? Why?
What is something new that learned for the Merit Badge that you found cool/neat/weird/wanted you to learn more?
Do you feel you know enough about the Merit Badge to tell your patrol/Webelos about it?

This is just to get the boy talking about a lot of different things and sometime intangible things like "feelings," "likes/dislikes", etc... Never to test/re-test.

I ask similar questions about the skills learned to earn his rank.

Weak answers show two main things...1) Troop is not teaching to standard or 2) Boy needs help with his confidence in speaking with adults.


And I always ask what I can do to make the Troop/Scouting better for the Scout.

[smtroop168]

What questions are you asking? It isn't up to the Troop to determine if the Scout earned the badge! It is up to the counselor. And if you feel a counselor isn't doing their job, there are channels for that, but grilling the Scout isn't one of them. You are doing the Scouts a great disservice.

I ask things like:

What Merit Badge did you enjoy earning the most/least? Why?
What is something new that learned for the Merit Badge that you found cool/neat/weird/wanted you to learn more?
Do you feel you know enough about the Merit Badge to tell your patrol/Webelos about it?

This is just to get the boy talking about a lot of different things and sometime intangible things like "feelings," "likes/dislikes", etc... Never to test/re-test.

I ask similar questions about the skills learned to earn his rank.

Weak answers show two main things...1) Troop is not teaching to standard or 2) Boy needs help with his confidence in speaking with adults.


And I always ask what I can do to make the Troop/Scouting better for the Scout.

All these are good when done at the scout's Rank BOR but he's telling us that they do a separate BOR for the MBs which is not allowed.

[Fred Johnson]

This is still July. Were the SM and CMs at summer camp???? What camp did you go to????

Didn't say this summer. Happened last summer. My son was 11 and is now 12. His summer camp for this year is still several weeks off. They go to Tomahawk Scout Reservation near Rice Lake, WI. http://www.camptomahawk.org. And yes the SM and ASMs were in camp but there was a lot of leadership in transition.

Anyway, my original point is that we don't take away accomplishments once they are done. If the scout was tested and passed on a requirement by someone authorized to do so, it's a done issue. That the signature was a mistake is a grey area that I wish was caught. Ideally, the BOR has that job. But, I'm not going to tell my son to return his 1st class rank. I'm going to find a way for him to learn the skill that he should have had to get the rank.

Of course, it might make for a good scoutmaster minute. I'd be very proud that if when my son learned the mistake, he voluntarily did it on his own. That's a completely different thing and a big positive. It would be negative to try to force the situation and take the badge back.

[smtroop168]

This is still July. Were the SM and CMs at summer camp???? What camp did you go to????

Didn't say this summer. Happened last summer. My son was 11 and is now 12. His summer camp for this year is still several weeks off. They go to Tomahawk Scout Reservation near Rice Lake, WI. http://www.camptomahawk.org. And yes the SM and ASMs were in camp but there was a lot of leadership in transition.

Anyway, my original point is that we don't take away accomplishments once they are done. If the scout was tested and passed on a requirement by someone authorized to do so, it's a done issue. That the signature was a mistake is a grey area that I wish was caught. Ideally, the BOR has that job. But, I'm not going to tell my son to return his 1st class rank. I'm going to find a way for him to learn the skill that he should have had to get the rank.

Of course, it might make for a good scoutmaster minute. I'd be very proud that if when my son learned the mistake, he voluntarily did it on his own. That's a completely different thing and a big positive. It would be negative to try to force the situation and take the badge back.

Agree entirely...a card laid is a card played.

The original description of your son as an 11 yo with 6 months as a scout sounded like a current situation, new scout camp in March and that he was just back from summer camp as a 1st class. If it was almost a year ago, what's his status now?

[Fred Johnson]

Agree entirely...a card laid is a card played.

The original description of your son as an 11 yo with 6 months as a scout sounded like a current situation, new scout camp in March and that he was just back from summer camp as a 1st class. If it was almost a year ago, what's his status now?

Yeah, sometimes the long winded story details get compressed into a smaller shorter story to make a point.

My 2nd son is still a first class scout. Better at swimming, but not a strong swimmer yet. Will probably pass the BSA swim test. The best part is that he is finally coming out of his shell and connecting with other kids. Before that he was always sort of a loner. At his last camp, he really socialized with the other scouts. I loved seeing that.

My oldest is at the pre-jamboree tour of Washington D.C. now. My 3rd son is going to cub scout summer camp in August. My 4th son gets to go to his 1st scout camp as a brand new Tiger cub. Amazing how the boys grow up. With the youngest, will he be scared of the dark? With the oldest, are the fuel cans locked up?

[ThunderingWind]

All these are good when done at the scout's Rank BOR but he's telling us that they do a separate BOR for the MBs which is not allowed.

Understood. But would you think it wrong if the Advancement person taking the "Blue Cards" or completion document from the boy (in order to prepare Troopmaster &/or Advancement Report) to ask these questions in a less "formal" manner?

Holding a Merit Badge BoR is wrong, but asking the questions posed here is not outside the scope of Scouting.

So, that being said...we need to find the appropriate time, place and manner to ask them without breaking any rules or holding the Scout back.

[FrankJ]

So, that being said...we need to find the appropriate time, place and manner to ask them without breaking any rules or holding the Scout back.

SM conference? (not just for advancement)

Sitting on a rock by a LNT campfire twinkling in the twilight?

[ThunderingWind]

SM conference? (not just for advancement)

Sitting on a rock by a LNT campfire twinkling in the twilight?

Both good times and places. But I do see the Admin/Turn in Blue Card time as OK if not abused.

[nolesrule]

So, if you hold merit badge boards of review, what would you do if the scout refuses to participate?




Blue Card turn-in time is a good time to ask MBC quality control questions, as long as it is limited to a few questions and has no bearing on the scout earning the merit badge or not. The details should be fresh enough in the scout's mind to get a useful response. If you wait for the rank BOR, the memory may be fuzzy.

And, of course, the scout is under no obligation to answer those questions in order to receive the merit badge.

[Quailman]

A formal BOR seems extreme and sounds like adding to the requirements. Perhaps you could give each Scout a questionnaire after he turns in the blue card. You'd get the same feedback without the controversy.

If it's a merit badge that not many boys in the troop have earned, ask (but don't require) him to stand up at the next meeting and promote it. No format, just what he wants to say. "I earned the Traffic Safety MB. It was easy, especially since I already had driver's Ed.". Or he could do his Communications MB speech about the badge, the requirements, the counselor, the setting, etc. This might serve all the boys.