Disturbing Advancement Strategies

[Ursus Snorous Roarus]

I really see no problem with the premise that a 1st year scout cannot complete the First Aid MB and thereby satisfy all or most of the TFC first aid requirements. By suggesting otherwise I think you are violating the "no more no less" rule of advancement.

ahhhh, not so sure I agree there.... This is #1 requirement from First Aid MB:
"1. Satisfy your counselor that you have current knowledge of all first aid requirements for Tenderfoot Rank, Second Class Rank, and First Class Rank. "

Yes, it says 'knowledge', not 'have signed off'. But I guess we/I interpret that as he needs it signed off to 'satisfy' the counselor, or at least to show me that he is ready to take the merit badge. I don't think that's an unrealistic barrier to working on the MB and really doubt most will see it as such. We have a stated Troop policy that we don't promote merit badges in the first year as they should be focusing on rank advancement (I know = GASP!). I'm not saying I don't allow them to take it, instead I'm saying 'do this first'. That's not unreasonable.
Not to go off the deep end here, but I could see a Scout/Parent stretching that approach to say "I earned Emerg Prep, that means I should get First Aid MB then..." This just starts things going in the wrong direction, so head it off at the pass early. Scouting is a journey, not a race.

[alex gregory]

Ursus, good point and I personally agree that a scout shoud get signed off on the TFC first aid requirements before tackling the First Aid MB (it's not like the TFC requirements are that hard). Nevertheless, I still think a scout can immediately go after the First Aid MB.

I am not aware of any requirement that MB requirements must be completed in numerical order, unless otherwise specified. For example, Swimming MB requires the TFC swimming requirements before the "following" etc. A better example, Whitewater MB requires a scout get Canoeing MB or Kayaking Award before he can proceed with the following specifically enumerated requirements (I like the clarity).

Requirement #1 of the First Aid MB does not include any such "prerequisite" language, and I must conclude that it can be satisifed as part of the First Aid MB program.

I do not read First Aid requirment #1 as a barrier to taking the MB until met. My reading of First Aid requirement #1 is that it directs the MBC to verify "current" knowledge of the TFC first aid requirements, as opposed to simply assuming the scout has retained that knowledge simply because he has already been signed off.

I see no reason for your concern about a scout getting Emer.Prep. MB and then saying he is automatically entitled to First Aid MB. That would be impossible because the scout has not met all the requirments of Emer.Prep. until he has earned the First Aid MB (it's requirement #1 of the badge).

[Ursus Snorous Roarus]

Well, Alex it reads to me that you believe one way is correct, but are willing to accept an easier path, understandably supported by your very valid concerns over no more-no less. But as much as BSA says ‘the requirements are the requirements’, these are the kinds of grey areas where we certainly must interpret and apply our best gut feeling. I’d rather keep things simple: let’s do this before that, nothing unreasonable or unrealistic. Who is going to argue with my approach? Who can argue with a logical process of learning to walk before running? Who can argue with putting another learning opportunity in front of a kid? Only a parent that is trying to ramrod his little Johnny through “to get it done before he gets too old”. And in that scenario, that parent and I will be butting heads many times more down the road. Before you know it you’ll be dealing with a 12 year old Life Scout expecting approval for his Eagle project (honest!). Reference regular 'watering down requirements' posts throughout.
I’m not saying you’re wrong and I’m right. I just don’t see a need to go there by unnecessarily complicating what is already a complicated process. Feel free to disagree with me all you want, but with our approach we’ve been able to avoid the kind of situation that concerns were expressed about early in this thread. And I do think my Scouts' skills reflect that. My role is to guide these boys through their Scouting experience, and I think this is one contributing way to do that. So far, the results are overwhelmingly positive.

[Quailman]

Well, Alex it reads to me that you believe one way is correct, but are willing to accept an easier path, understandably supported by your very valid concerns over no more-no less.

What is your definition of 'correct'? Alex indicated what he would prefer if it were up to him, but it is not. The 'easier path', as you call it, is what is prescribed by the BSA requirements.

If it were up to me, I'd make the First Class MB expire each year. Someone mentioned Red Cross training, and that made me realize that you need to renew your training for an ARC card, so why not do the same for BSA 1st aid? Personally I wouldn't want to have a life-threatening situation in the presence of only the scouts in my troop, but we are working to change that. We will be adding 1st aid training to every meeting (and eliminatinig the group MB class). Unfortunately we could not find any older youth who know it well enough to train the younger ones, even though they have the MB.

[Ursus Snorous Roarus]

What is your definition of 'correct'? Alex indicated what he would prefer if it were up to him, but it is not. The 'easier path', as you call it, is what is prescribed by the BSA requirements.

I guess 'correct' being an opinion of which is that person's preferable way to do things. “If it were up to me” as you stated is what you feel is correct. What I feel is correct is that the intent of advancement should ‘as much as possible’ be one step at a time. There is nothing prescribed by BSA on this and therein lies the discussion. What each unit’s philosophy on this, how often they offer BORs, how they qualify SPL candidates, etc… is how it is dealt with. Just my two cents…. Use at your own risk!

[kwildman]

Personally, I do not like "group" policies. We need to look at the youths as individuals and what they are capable of. Our job is to help guide them along. While first class first year is a good goal, some kids may take longer. There are also kids that are more motivated and will exceed those goals. Advancement is an individual challenge and not a team effort. The emphasis on advancement needs to be tailored to each scout.

[alex gregory]

[quote="Ursus Snorous Roarus"]Before you know it you’ll be dealing with a 12 year old Life Scout expecting approval for his Eagle project (honest!).

I thought advancement and MBs are up to the individual scout. A kid that can satisfy all the requirements of Eagle by age 12 - Wow! If that kid has truly earned the rank and satisifed the requirments I don't think it is the job of adult leaders to prevent an exceptionally motivated scout from advancing in the fast lane.

All that said, you're right, BSA does "water down" quite a few important lessons, First Aid being an excellent example (I hope that when I collapse there is someone on hand with more than a First Aid MB). But that's OK, advancement and MBs are not supposed to make a scout an expert - expertise comes with practice and maturity.

You're right again that a scout misses out on a lot of the best aspects of scouting by racing through advancement, and I think it is perfectably appropriate to counsel a scout to slow down and smell the roses. We've all seen the guys who get their Eagle very early and then disappear - it's sad, but it does not always happen that way.

The solution is not, I think, to impose barriers to advancement, but rather to have a troop program that supplements individual advancement and allows both an opportunity for scouts to learn along the way and also practice what they have already been recognized as having learned along the way.

[milominderbinder2]

What about the leaders that put kids in MB /allow them to take,that they are really too young to complete? "Climbing,Wilderness Survival,Archery. To name a few.

Wilderness Survival merit badge, offered at many summer camps, is a great merit badge for a second-year Scout. One night during camp they make their own shelters and sleep in them. They also cook their own meals, make fires without matches, learn to signal, and have a ball. Our troop is active so by summer camp many of our boys are ready for Wilderness Survival their first year.

Our troop also has a Winter Survival Campout in the dead of January. Yes there is typically snow on the ground. Yes we pack in and make fires without matches, etc. A parent (adult partner) is required the first time any Scout goes on this campout but the parents (and Scouts) can opt to sleep in adirondacks at the site instead.

The new Scouts often do better than the older Scouts because they and their parents listen at the troop meetings where they learn about winter clothing, sleeping bags, and other gear.

My son will tell you that the Winter Survival Campout right after he bridged (December) was one of the best campouts he has ever been on. He and his buddies built great shelters and cooked their own food over an open fire. When we came home that Sunday my wife just stared at him and later told me, "He is 5 years older."

There are 17-year-olds who are simply not mature enough for true wilderness survival. There are 11-year-olds who are.

The Scoutmaster should consider the maturity of a Scout, not old-age entitlements.

- Craig