Only Three BORS per Year??

[ThunderingWind]

....... We also have the kids do a BOR for merit badges. It is not a pass/fail thing. We do that so we can get the paperwork completed AND find out if there is a problem with the counsler. We have parents get upset because the kids have to board for a merit badge but it is more than that.......

Then call it something else like "Administrative Records Review/Processing." A name change can help change the perception. That being said, also include language in your Parent Manual that explains this process that describes what you just stated above - large troop, checking on MBCs, making sure records (Scouts, Troops & Councils) are correct, etc.....

[Fred Johnson]

I have seen this subject come up before and I always have to ask: If SMC is not pass/fail (which is is NOT) and a BoR is not pass/fail, where is the adult oversight on advancement? Just having things checked off in the book does not mean that the boy is ready for advancement. Who signs the book in the Troop? Many Troops have SPL or ASPL signing requirements. SMC can not be P/F, but to turn the BoR into a rubber stamp is wrong.

Okay. You hit a serious hot button for me that's been a real pain lately. I was ready to say it's not for some adult just back from his proctology exam to judge whether an 11 year old boy fulfills the philosophical essence of a tenderfoot scout (or other rank). Then, I decided I better make sure I'm right before I vent. So, I re-read the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures". Grrrr..... ACPP is just clear as mud on this. No wonder I'm always surprised how well educated and well trained scouters view and implement the advancement program so differently.

The conflict is in the ACPP indicating no retesting but that we should "determine the Scout’s attitude and his acceptance of Scouting’s ideals." Other scouting documents indicate a scout controls his own advancement and earns advancement. Well, if the scoutmaster signed off on the scout spirit, isn't it done? Doing otherwise re-tests scout spirit? If all the requirements are done, doesn't the scout deserve to advance because he earned it? I'd hate to see some scout denied advancement because joe schmoe BOR member saw the scout inadequately lash two pieces of wood together at the last camporee. Ooops. Your rain fly is not taut. Sorry, two more weeks as tenderfoot. Whoops. Sorry. I’m ranting.

Generally, I have no problem telling a non-communicative, oppositional or non-participating scout to come back to continue the BOR when he is ready. The BOR is a two sided process and a requirement that the scout completes it. But the BOR members don't know the scout personally (not family and not SM/ASM leaders), so how do you judge the merits of the scout.

From what I can glimmer form the ACPP, having requirements signed off in the book DOES mean that the scout is ready for advancement. That's the definition. The scout controls and earns his own advancement by having completed the rank requirements. (inappropriate comments removed). I'm always concerned that we need to be careful so that someone 20+ years removed from being a youth does not impose their own views on the scout. Someone with authority has tested the scout and judged the rank requirement done. It's not the BOR's place to step in after the fact and correct the scout. Correct the person who signed off? Sure, but not the scout himself. (and if you have SPL/ASPL sign off on individual requirements ... it's done ... they are approving the requirement ... focus on training the SPL/ASPL better and thus improving the troop program)

The BOR is NOT rubber stamping the scout because that's not the primary purpose of the BOR. The BOR is to make sure things are complete, encourage the scout and help improve the troops program. Very little of the BOR is judging the scouts's character.

Sorry for the rant. It’s a hot button topic.

We also have the kids do a BOR for merit badges.

We just ask the scout what he thought of the counselor and the badge both when the blue card is handed in and during the rank BOR. Glad it works for you. I've seen other troops with other "procedures" and "policies" for advancement and I cringe. No wonder it's so hard for scouters to move between troops. Troops have implemented very different advancement programs.

[Mrw]

In our troop, the SMC is used to check that the boy really has the right things signed in the book. And if he is clueless, the SM asks him to come back the next week with a little more practice under his belt on the subject at had.

Are you saying the Scoutmaster doesn't sign off on the Scoutmaster Conference?

Yes, he continues the conference to the next week. And I have never seen it go more than one week before the conference is complete and the boy recommended for a BOR for advancement.

[smtroop168]

We also have the kids do a BOR for merit badges.

You really mean you talk about MBs when the scouts have their Rank BORs don't you????????

The "BOR" for MBs, which all of know is adding to the requirements, really occurs when the scout brings his card back to his SM for the final signature under the MBC. That's where the scout should be asked about "how it went" and "what did you learn or like about the badge".

If you have the 100 or so MBs earned at Summer Camp and use Fritz1255's model, your scouts will turn 18 before you get through all the Swimming MBs!!!

[evmori]

In our troop, the SMC is used to check that the boy really has the right things signed in the book. And if he is clueless, the SM asks him to come back the next week with a little more practice under his belt on the subject at had.

Are you saying the Scoutmaster doesn't sign off on the Scoutmaster Conference?

Yes, he continues the conference to the next week. And I have never seen it go more than one week before the conference is complete and the boy recommended for a BOR for advancement.

Big problem. A Scoutmaster Conference is not a pass/fail requirement. It is a participate in requirement. Not signing the requirement after one has taken place it should be signed.

[smtroop168]

Remember a SMC can be used for other than advancement....so you can "adjourn" a SMC and meet again to complete the advancement requirement.

If the SM refuses to sign off that the scout has participated in an advancement related SMC, the scout can still request a BOR

You can also adjourn a BOR but if you decide to vote not to advance the scout he must be given an explanation why and given a follow up letter on what he needs to do. If the scout disagrees, he must be given the appeal procedures.

[evmori]

Remember a SMC can be used for other than advancement....so you can "adjourn" a SMC and meet again to complete the advancement requirement.

If the SM refuses to sign off that the scout has participated in an advancement related SMC, the scout can still request a BOR

You can also adjourn a BOR but if you decide to vote not to advance the scout he must be given an explanation why and given a follow up letter on what he needs to do. If the scout disagrees, he must be given the appeal procedures.

Once a SMC is held, it should be signed off. There is no requirement to pass this, only participate.

[smtroop168]

This info is from the site:

The requirements for advancement is that the Scout participates in a Scoutmaster Conference, not that he "passes" the conference. When advancement is going to be deferred, the Scout should not come to the Scoutmaster conference thinking that everything is OK and then be surprised that his advancement is deferred. He should have had plenty of warning and guidance prior to the Scoutmaster conference. This is not the time to shut the door on advancement, but rather to work with the Scout to create goals that will allow him to succeed. However, even after a negative Scoutmaster conference for the ranks of Tenderfoot to Life, if the Scout desires a board of review, he should be granted his request. ”

— Advancement Policies #33088


The Scoutmaster conference is neither an interrogation nor a retesting of a Scout's competence. It should be an informal conversation between Scout and Scoutmaster either toward a certain goal or as a requirement for advancement. In either case, open-ended questions are good to prompt the Scout's comments. Encourage him to come to conclusions on his own; don't simply tell him what you think.

A Scoutmaster conference is simply a chance to talk to a Scout about how he is doing, how he feels about the troop and his role in it, how he is advancing, and how he is striving to live up to Scouting's ideals. Consequently, a Scoutmaster conference can take place anytime and for any reason.

Some reasons to have a Scoutmaster conference may include:

A Scout's lack of advancement
A perceived trouble between the Scout and others in the troop
A certain event at the last campout or troop meeting


Interestingly, the term SM conference is not in the pre 1958 handbooks. Of course the term was changed to "Personal Growth Conference" during the Skill Award Era.

The SMC is done after all requirements are completed for the particular rank. The reasons shown as non-advancement SMC would not qualify as ones where the scout participates and gets the requirement signed off.

Ed is correct that all the scout has to do is participate, not pass. There is nothing that I can find that says however that the SMC is completed in one sitting and cannot be adjourned. This of course would be an extreme case where there may be questions regarding completion of the requirements.

[Mrw]

While I agree with the SMC not being a pass/fail event and just a participatory part of earning the rank, AND while I agree that it is not a retesting of the skills learned, continuing the conversation to the following week is not the same as "failing" the boy. And in our troop it would not delay that BOR at all.

We generally try to get BOR in the week after the SMCs and generally have a few to do on any given week that we are doing them. If the conversation were continued from the previous week, that boy is then talked to again at the beginning of the second week, gets his sign-off and still gets onto the BOR list with time to have the board that evening.

We do often ask boys about specific skills they have supposedly learned during BOR's. Especially for the lower ranks, as it gives us a measure of both how well the boy is learning and how well the troop is teaching. If the boy really has no clue about the skill, we encourage him to practice up and learn it better so he will be ready to show younger boys when the next group crosses over. We have never "failed" a boy at a BOR over retesting. (And they do go back and try to learn it since they do not want to look dumb in front of younger kids.)

[evmori]

We also have the kids do a BOR for merit badges.

Why do you do this?

[Mrw]

We also have the kids do a BOR for merit badges.

Why do you do this?

Although I understand the explanation given by the original poster of the comment, I find it easier to just ask the boys who have gone to a counselor we did not know before how the MBC was to work with. And really the only one I have not used again was one who did a good job with the boy on the badge, but rubbed the dad "buddy" who took him there the wrong way.

We will ask about what they learned in taking a MB in a BOR, but just to get them talking about themselves.

[cballman]

The reason is like MRW said we try to get the young men to open up to other people. That is why we do the merit badges in a BOR. Most of these young men will be in a BOR for a rank any way so what is another few minutes. It may seem like a lifetime to most kids but I have seen what a difference that it makes in the way a young man opens up to differrent people. Is it wrong? Maybe but it has worked for our troop for over 10 years.

[FrankJ]

So do you talk about merit badges in the board of review or do you not award the merit badges until after the board of review? Talking about merit badges in a BOR is completely reasonable since that is part of scouting. Holding a BOR for a merit badge is black and white against the rules of advancement.

[evmori]

The reason is like MRW said we try to get the young men to open up to other people. That is why we do the merit badges in a BOR. Most of these young men will be in a BOR for a rank any way so what is another few minutes. It may seem like a lifetime to most kids but I have seen what a difference that it makes in the way a young man opens up to differrent people. Is it wrong? Maybe but it has worked for our troop for over 10 years.

Yes it is wrong. It is up to the merit badge counselor to decide if the Scout has met the requirements for the merit badge, not a BOR. Give the young man MBC;s outside the Troop will help him open up! This is adding to the requirements and should be abolished ASAP!

[razor_strop]

Is it wrong? Maybe but...

Sadly, an oft used phrase throughout Scouting.

[lifescoutforlife]

It is funny how the people in scouting that are trying to play by the rules are the bad guys and the ones that do it thier own way are always right even when proven wrong.

[ThunderingWind]

OK...How about this then...........When the boy comes back to turn in his blue card (or whatever documentation is used in your Troop/District/Council since blue cards are not 100% required) to the Advancement person designated to receive said documentation, this designated person asks the same questions of the Scout.

Same questions being asked to see if the Counselor is doing their job properly just not labeled a BOR.

So, if the same questions are being asked, who cares when they are being asked? The information given is not beign used to hold the boy up, afterall, the CoH is not tomorrow (guessing here). If an issue arises with
the questioning, the Troop has time to figure it out.

I have asked the "So what did you learn by taking MB ABC" question in a BOR. Not to re-test but to see that the boy can communicate. And I generally tell the boy that I am now going to ask questions that help us adults learn how we may make the Troop/Scouting better.

[jr56]

Sounds ok to me. From what I gather, you are not going to use this questioning to determine if the boy is going to get the merit badge (that has already been done by the counselor). You are just using it as a tool to see how the MBC's are doing, and to see if the boy has anything he would like to share about his experience in earning the merit badge. That is not adding to requirements as I see it.

[FrankJ]

The question really is what is a board of review? Asking questions about a merit badge, counselor, quality, etc really is not a BOR & is appropriate. If the merit badge is signed off as complete by a counselor approved for that badge and some one is reviewing the requirements of the merit badge to see if the scout "earned" the badge & holding up awarding the badge until the review is complete is clearly against the "rules".

The issue is when a scout has completed a merit badge from a registered merit badge counselor & clearly has not completed the requirements what do you do? According to the "rules" aside from suggesting that the scout do the right thing, not much. This is why you see so many people try to take the law into their own hands.

In a few short weeks, a lot of scouts will be coming from Jamboree with a bunch of merit badges. The troop will have no control over the selection of the counselor, and will not be able to review rather or not the merit badge was "earned" other than the completed blue card. (generic term)

I am using Jamboree just as an example. I am in no way passing or implying judgment on the Jambo merit badges.

[Fred Johnson]

The issue is when a scout has completed a merit badge from a registered merit badge counselor & clearly has not completed the requirements what do you do? According to the "rules" aside from suggesting that the scout do the right thing, not much. This is why you see so many people try to take the law into their own hands.

I agree. That is the issue. As with everything in life, different people have different expectations. Troops have different expectations of the scouts ... unfortunately. Likewise, MBC quality differs by person and over time.

The important thing is not to penalize the scout for a failure of the system, the leader or the MBC. That's pouring water on their fire for scouting. It diminishes their accomplishment and tells them they wasted their time. So what if they have not mastered a specific skill. Merit badges are introductory. Most of scouting teaches introductory skill levels, not master skill levels. Having a pass/fail BOR after the merit badge is complete spanks the scout for the leaders mistake.

A great example is my son. He came home from summer camp as a 1st class scout including having his SMC and BOR at camp. BUT ... he could not pass the swim test yet. So, how did he get advanced? My response was two fold. #1 Talk to the troop leaders to see what happened. We can probably do something better. #2 Bring my son to the YMCA and get him swimming. The one thing I won't do is take away his accomplishment.

As a side note, I found out a troop guide (youth) was working with the patrol to sign off accomplishments. As a group he was asking them questions and signing off their requirements from the Brownsea summer camp program. I suspect he wanted to get back to his friends and was rushing through without paying attention to "did the individual complete requirement". If we say higher rank scouts can sign off on lower rank requirements, that will happen. No retesting. That would damage both the younger and the older scout.