Reconvened BoR

[Cowboy]

I have searched everywhere and can not find any reference to this in any of my BSA literature. Unfortunately, it seems that everything about the BoR is simply copied from one manual to the next with no real expansion anywhere. Onward:
2nd Class Scout K Boards for 1st Class. He is denied advancement unanimously due to unresponsiveness to questions. At one point a question was asked and he simply sat looking at the committee member for 3 minutes without saying anything. This boy is not stupid and he is not mute, sometimes it is impossible to get him to stop talking. He is 13 yrs old. He was told specifically what he needed to do in order to pass his BoR and told specifically to request a date within the next three weeks for a new BoR. He and his mother met with the SM (I am sufficiently ticked that he got involved, but that is another issue). The SM then directed him to meet with 3 committee members for another BoR. He passed this BoR. I do not know who sat on the BoR, but I do know that at least 2 of the original (3) members were not on it. The question: Is there any policy against "changing " Board members to get a different outcome? In my mind this is very disrespectful and dishonest. Kind of like when my son would ask me for something and go to mama when I said no. This is the second similar incidence in the past 2 months, both involved my wife. As you may guess, we are one conversation away from leaving Scouts.

[FieldSports]

Have you asked the SM what the issue might have been? Have other Scouts had issues with some of the parents that make up the Board? The BOR is meant as a tool for feedback on the operations of the troop. What if the issue is with the very member of the Board member who is sitting on the review. Can't expect a 13 year old to tell an adult that there is a problem.

[evmori]

On the surface, this sounds like an end run. Mom should not be involved. Is mom a registered leader in the Troop?

[Mrw]

I would expect the parent to become involved, at least to the extent that they need to know why their child did not pass the first BOR and how to counsel him to do better the next time around.

That being said, I do not have an issue with the second BOR having a different make-up. You said one of the three was the same from one time to the next, and if this person was willing to agree that the boy should pass, that should be enough for you.

It could well be that the boy was having a very bad day the first time around and just needed a few days to adjust his attitude.

And if he did not pass the BOR, he was due an explanation of why AND how to fix it, along with a timetable for when he could try again.

[FrankJ]

Pub 33088 Advancement Committee Procedures is probably the best place to look.

1)The SM should not be involved at all. BOR is for the the committee & the CC should be handling it.
2)If the BOR was properly convened. IE all board members are registered committee members then only by the rules appeal is to the next higher level. In this case the district. As a practical matter for BORs below eagle I expect the troop committee would be the first appeal & you are not going to get much support for going against this if the paper work is properly filled out & signed by the right people.
3) You also have to remember that this is ultimately a youth program and not a court of law.

[Cowboy]

We have co-chairs for advancement. Both of them sat on the board, one other mother and the SM's wife (registered member of the committee), and one of his "favorite" ASM's sat in also. Yes, part of the problem may be that he & mom have tried on several occasions to claim that he has completed requirements and they just did not get checked off in his book. Since no one could verify it, he had to "redo" the requirements. Such things as identifying poisonous plants, etc. Regardless of how uncomfortable he may have felt: IMO: It is in excusable and disrespectful for this board to have been reconvened without the original board members being notified. It is my understanding that one of the "new board" is a mother, who is registered as treasurer, but whos son has dropped out and she is done as soon as the books get back from the auditor. This particular woman is of the entitlement mentality. Regardless: Yes, my wife (one of the co-chairs) is "part of the problem". She demands that the requirements be met fully, and as stated, as do the other AC and the SM's wife. It may be noted that the SM's son, and my son are Eagles and the other AC's son is just completing his ELSP. None of those three ladies is interested in just sliding a boy through to make him feel good.
I do not recall if this Scouts mother is still registered. At one time she was teh "official" secretary, but after 4 missed TC meetings she "resigned". That was 2 years ago.

[FrankJ]

Being a "mother" is no more of an issue than being a "father". The issue is when mom or dad sits on son's BOR specifically against the rules. . ASMs are not supposed to sit on BORs either since they are by definition not committee members.

So who is signing the advancement paper work that get turned into counsel? This should not be a random person or the SM.

[Cowboy]

As noted above: He was given very clear and concise directives as to what he needed to do and when (within three weeks) to do it. During that three weeks he did not participate in the Troop fund raiser, but did show up as a "customer". He did not march with the Troop in the parade, but did sit on the sidelines collected candy. He did not show up at a Merit Badge outing set up especially for him and three other boys, but complained that the person who stopped to give him a ride (without being asked) only honked the horn (which he could not hear) and did not come up to the door to see if there was a problem. This would all fly directly in the face of the attempted discussion during the original BoR regarding living the Scout Law. You know the parts about respectful, helpful, loyal? The one original member of the BoR who sat on the subsiquent one originally was concerned and wanted to pass him with a "stern talking" about things so that he would make rank for Jambo. I personally don't put much stock in the yes vote from that quarter.

[Cowboy]

@Frank: I was using "mother" only as an identifier, not signifying that a woman would or should act any different than a man. As far as the paperwork, I would assume the other AC as no one has even notified my wife that a second board was held. If they came to her with the paperwork, she would sign it and send it in as is her job, but would not be happy about it.

[evmori]

Yep this was an end run. Bad form.

[FrankJ]

OK. I was having trouble working out the difference between mothers & mom.

Part of signing the paperwork is only signing it when it is correct. True there times when the paper work is correct & you need to sign it, even when you are not in agreement.

[smtroop168]

I have searched everywhere and can not find any reference to this in any of my BSA literature. Unfortunately, it seems that everything about the BoR is simply copied from one manual to the next with no real expansion anywhere. Onward:
2nd Class Scout K Boards for 1st Class. He is denied advancement unanimously due to unresponsiveness to questions. At one point a question was asked and he simply sat looking at the committee member for 3 minutes without saying anything. This boy is not stupid and he is not mute, sometimes it is impossible to get him to stop talking. He is 13 yrs old. He was told specifically what he needed to do in order to pass his BoR and told specifically to request a date within the next three weeks for a new BoR. He and his mother met with the SM (I am sufficiently ticked that he got involved, but that is another issue). The SM then directed him to meet with 3 committee members for another BoR. He passed this BoR. I do not know who sat on the BoR, but I do know that at least 2 of the original (3) members were not on it. The question: Is there any policy against "changing " Board members to get a different outcome? In my mind this is very disrespectful and dishonest. Kind of like when my son would ask me for something and go to mama when I said no. This is the second similar incidence in the past 2 months, both involved my wife. As you may guess, we are one conversation away from leaving Scouts.

To answer your question, there is no policy that says a scout's 2nd BOR should have the same members and some would argue, the new BOR should not have any of the 1st BOR members. i would hope the 2nd BOR would have a different outcome than the 1st (e.g. rank advancement) The #33088 ACPP is clear on this:

If the board decides that the Scout is not ready to advance, the candidate should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily. Most Scouts accept responsibility for not completing the requirements properly. The members of the board of review should specify what must be done to rework the candidate's weaknesses and schedule another board of review for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to a Scout who is turned down for rank advancement, confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement. Should the Scout disagree with the decision, the appeal procedures should be explained to him.

So....was there a letter explaining his weaknesses? This formally documents what happens instead of relying on memories. As long as the scout agrees to the actions laid out by the BOR, the appeal process doesn't come into play.

The SM doesn't direct the scout to meet with three CMs. He requests that a BOR be convened usually through the Advancement Chair or sometimes through the CC (depending on how the Committee wants to do it)

[lambeausam]

The one original member of the BoR who sat on the subsiquent one originally was concerned and wanted to pass him with a "stern talking" about things so that he would make rank for Jambo. I personally don't put much stock in the yes vote from that quarter.

I think passage speaks pretty loudly as to what may have happened. If I am not mistaken, scouts had to reach 1st Class no later than July 1st to attend Jambo. Sounds like a push through so that a family wouldn't lose money. Maybe Jambo will open his eyes as to how a scout should act.

[evmori]

The one original member of the BoR who sat on the subsiquent one originally was concerned and wanted to pass him with a "stern talking" about things so that he would make rank for Jambo. I personally don't put much stock in the yes vote from that quarter.

I think passage speaks pretty loudly as to what may have happened. If I am not mistaken, scouts had to reach 1st Class no later than July 1st to attend Jambo. Sounds like a push through so that a family wouldn't lose money. Maybe Jambo will open his eyes as to how a scout should act.

Now the real truth comes out! Jamboree! Hey let's pass all the Scouts whether they deserve it or not so they can go to Jamboree! What a crock!

[Fred Johnson]

Try to use this incident as an opportunity for the troop leaders (Scoutmaster, ASMs, committee members, ...) to review how the troop is doing and how the troop is serving this scout.

The scouts non-responsiveness at the first BOR was a reaction to something. What was it? Is it one time or on-going? Does it reflect a larger issue? Behaviors reflect something. Try to find it.

• Medical, emotional or other one-time situation
  
  • Was the scout upset at something that happened that day? Angry? Tired? No sleep? Hungry? Distracted?
  • Does the scout have a condition that is not known or fully understood? Diabetic? ADD? Asbergers syndrome? Boarder line emotional disorder?
  • Some parents won't share the medical conditions of their scout with all the leaders. That can make things hard.
  • Do the leaders know how to handle the special diagnosed conditions of the scouts in their troop?
  • Have the leaders been trained how to work with youth? Seriously.
• His Leaders
  
  • Grudge? Perceived unfairness? Real unfairness? Other?
  • Perhaps, the scout had an incident that is not known?
  • Perhaps the scout is hearing things from his family or others.
  • Perhaps problems between the adults are becoming problems between some adults and some scouts.
• His family
  
  • Is there an issue between the scout and his family?
  • Is his family pushing him to be there and he doesn't want to be there?
• Troop itself
  
  • Are the troop practices following the BSA documented rules and policies?
  • Has the troop added more than the BSA documented rules and policies? Bad thing.
  • Is the BOR being done as described in Advancement Committee Policy and Procedures publication 33088? Encouraging the scout. Used to learn how to improve the troop. Used to improve the experience for the scout. Making sure everything is signed off as required, without retesting or applying criteria of whether he really learned it well enough. (if it's signed off by someone, it's done).
  • The below statement makes me concerned. I'm not saying its wrong. I wasn't there. I'm just concerned. Usually, we trust the scout. Usually, the scoutmaster would have caught this first.
  
  

  Yes, part of the problem may be that he & mom have tried on several occasions to claim that he has completed requirements and they just did not get checked off in his book. Since no one could verify it, he had to "redo" the requirements. Such things as identifying poisonous plants, etc.

Scouting is for the boys. Discover and fix issues that are hurting your troop as soon as possible. If they are left to fester, they will only poison the whole troop.

Bring this up at the next troop committee meeting? Discuss it without accusations. Listen. Try to learn from each other. Try to build relationships. Try to make the troop a better troop.

[FrankJ]

Great post Fred. I am tempted to quote the entire thing because it is worth repeating. It is easy to get caught up in the minutia & forget that it is about the boys.

[wagionvigil]

Sometimes I think some troops think it us against them and them end up getting the shaft. Ihad a group at the cave Friday and we were talking advancement etc. and the word maturity came out of opne of the leaders mouth. I being the tactful person I am. Immediately asked where in the advancement guide does it use that word. They said it does not but they count it. AT which time I explained the way it is supposed to be. I also informed them of a leader in my council that always used that in advancement and no longer has a troop.

[smtroop168]

Don't forget a BOR and SMC can be used for other than advancement purposes. The Committee has an obligation to oversee the troop's operations. I assume the SM held his SMC and sent this scout onward to his BOR prepared.

I understand and agree with what Fred's post has in it. That being said, it is frustrating to have a scout not answer questions at a BOR and most adults don't feel like they should have to psychoanalize a 13 year old to get answers to simple questions. We have a lot of postings on the forum that we don't get the "Paul Harvey" version. I wonder what question had the scout silent for 3 minutes?

Sounds like the BOR did its job by telling the scout what he needed to do to be better prepared for the next time. From what's been described, the scouts Mother circumvented the process and what this tells the scout is that Mom will come to the rescue. Wait until his EP!!! We just had a case here where it was found that the Mom did the Eagle Project for her son and pocketed the left over donations.

For Wagion....you are a meanie.

[wagionvigil]

No just want things done correctly. It is interesting that most of these hard nose adults would never tolerate this in their work place if the roles were reversed. We are here for the youth and without the youth we are not needed. I agree that kids need to be held accountable but you need to have a little leeway sometimes. When I go to Camp schools I hear the spirit of the requirement compared to the actual requirement and BSA uses the SPirt of the requirement many many times.

[Cowboy]

The general topic of the BoR was the Scout Law. One of the members discussed courtosey and used the example that this boy never turns in trip permission slips until the day of the trip and that this is not courteous to those who are trying to purchase food and make transportation arrangements. He was asked if he understood the example. He looked at her for over a minute and finally said" Yeah". When asked what his favorite MB was he finally responded; "Art, I think". Why that one? "I don't know, it was easy." He was asked if he had completed any of his ER MB's and was unable to say. He does not have a sash (even though one has been offered free by a couple of people) so he was unable to refer to that. His uniform did not have position or rank badges on it, claims that the dog chewed them off again. It has been suggested that he may hang up his uniform to prevent this. He is on his second handbook for the year due to tossing it around and leaving it outside.
After the ERMB question the questioner finally had enough and plainly asked him: "Do you feel that you have earned this rank?" This is the question that he never answered.
No, there was no written follow up as the SM directed the AC not to, as he was talking to Scout and mom in person about it. I had directed her to do so, but he outranks me and she doesn't have enough "backbone" to stand up to him. It is all about going to Jambo. Two of the other boys going are going to be very upset that he was passed since they have worked thier butts off to make the ranks that they hold. (Eagle, Life almost Eagle)