Behavior of district advancement committees

[Fred Johnson]

Time for a rant!!!!!

I'd like to get a discussion about district advancement committees and the Eagle process. This seems like a continual problem in many districts for many troops. Unresponsive contacts. Petty changes. Unending changes. Adding hoops to make sure the scout EARNS their Eagle. Our local district advancement committee views it as their job to protect the Eagle scout brand. So if they believe someone is not worthy of Eagle scout, they will slow up that scout EVEN IF ALL THE REQUIREMENTS ARE COMPLETE AND INCLUDING THAT THE PROJECT IS A GOOD EAGLE PROJECT.

I've dealt with multiple families that are really upset because of how the district leaders have treated their son. It is a learning experience, but not a good one. If we expect our scouts to have good positive experiences with merit badge counselors, scoutmasters and other leaders, why don't we expect the same thing of the district advancement committees? If they are not there to help every scout succeed, they should stay home and watch the golf channel.

What are other scouter’s experiences?

(And while the topic is open. Let's get rid of any district advancement committee eagle approval process that is essentially back and forth email. It's not constructive and leaves everyone with a bad experience. How about actually meeting the scout face to face? Novel idea I know. Show the scout you are really interested by actually spending time with the scout. If needed, you could even read the project information while the scout is there. Have him make the changes and bring it back. Your time with him and his project proves that you are there to help him, not to just be an obstacle.)

I'm really upset at how our last five Eagle candidates have been treated.

[smtroop168]

As a member of our DAC who has reviewed many many EPs, most of the problems I have experienced come when the scout does not come prepared for their face-to-face EP review. We have published guidelines within our council, do Life to Eagle seminars (where parents are most welcome) and do ad hoc training of unit leaders.

The DAC is always the "bad guy" on EP reviews. The SM and Committee of the unit generally do not do a very good job of reviewing the project (even though they have the same checklist) and accepts poor constructed plans. They kick the kid and the project to the DAC who has to sort through an unorganized pile of papers with the scout. In a number of cases the scout isn't even using the correct workbook version!! This can lead to some of the items you are slamming the DAC about.

The DAC has a CAC which has a Scout Exec. If the unit feels the DAC isn't following their procedures, then they should address their concerns to the appropriate personnel.

We can follow up this discussion about the units who allow their scouts to come to their EBOR with the same poor preparation if you want.

[jr56]

I have served on DAC and been the District Advancement Chair myself. I have encountered some interesting personalities along the way. I would say, if you don't like the way the DAC is operating, volunteer to help out and try to solve the problem. You can also file formal complaints with the appropritate professional scouters, by I have often noticed that they are not very eager to make waves, and so are usually of little help.

[RMM]

When I was asked to become the DAC I pondered it before accepting. I had already heard the worst place to be was between a bear and her cub. The second worse place was between a Mother and her Son's Eagle. I accepted as we had a strong Committee and we had an Eagle Advisor who was point on the Eagle process. Fast forward 9 months and the Eagle Advisor steps down so now I wear both hats.

I suspect it can be a challenging experience for the Scout. We hold Life to Eagle Seminars every other month. They are announced on the District e-mail system. They vary between Tues, Wed, and Thur evening. Sometimes no one shows up. Scouts are asked to bring their parents and a Troop leader. We are lucky if a parent shows up with the Scout. I then receive "urgent" requests to have a Life to Eagle Seminar with a Scout who has been Life x years and has not been able to attend one of the seminars over the past year. I have even had Scouts schedule to meet with me and then not show up. When I call them on their cell phone to see if they are OK I get " oh, I forgot" or " I am not ready to meet and forgot to call you to reschedule."

We go over the Eagle process, the Scouts take notes. Then they come to me to get their project approved. Yet it has not been reviewed or approved by the Troop SM or CC. We then need to send the Scout back to the Troop. We are constantly asked if this will be a good project. I may not know the scout very well so it is difficult to determine if the proposed project is unique and challenging to the Scout. I am seeing more and more scouts not receiving the guidance and or support from the Troop/Team/Crew to have a successful project experience.

When the application is turned in, I meet with the Scout. We go over the application line by line. It is amazing how many Scouts do not want to invest the 30 minutes to do this and then become frustrated when we do not obtain approval from Council to hold the EBOR. It is also amazing how many Scouts have Merit Badge issues that need to get clarified before we can obtain permission from Council to hold the EBOR (Blue cards not signed by the counselor or a Troop representative - how were they processed to award the MB, not enough MBs earned by the Date of the Star, Life BOR, or joining Boy Scouts in December 15th and then having s signed MB for Family Life dated January 20th.

Asking the Scout to get these challenges addressed is a no win situation. I hear more and more that I am preventing the Scout from having the EBOR. No reflection on the minimal effort the Scout and Troop/Team/Crew have done to help the Scout get there.

How about the SM Conference. The Scout says he had it. It entailed 5 minute discussion and the SM signed it. Then the Scout asks me about the upcoming EBOR and I then spend 45 minutes discussing Scouting with the Scout so he is more prepared for his BOR as he had not obtained the support from his Troop/Team/Crew.

How many times I have missed dinner to meet with the Scout to meet because the Scout could not meet at 7 or 8 PM as he had basketball?

How many times we meet with the Scout and the parent is there answering all questions about the paperwork and asking all the questions about the process. Make one wonder who completed the Eagle application, the project workbook. When discussing the Eagle Project the Scout starts of with " My Mom did this preparation and my Dad did this preparation , then we met at the site to do the project," "My Mom typed my project work book for me or typed the Eagle application." These scouts strugge at their EBOR. Boards that should last 25 - 40 minutes lasting 60 minutes + as the Scout is not able to discuss his project or interact with adults (all the MBs were done in the Troop).

And the question comes -- why is the DAC adding things to the Eagle

Yours in Scouting

[Fred Johnson]

I honestly appreciate your comments. I've seen scouts, families and troop leaders who have really blown it. And it causes a big mess. The trouble is that DAC's also use the same responses to cover for their own poor performance and less than supportive attitudes. Plus, our DAC asks the scouts to contact them first before the troop reviews their project. It's as if the troop should be removed from the loop.

As for our troop, our scoutmaster has been in Boy Scouts for 19 years, scoutmaster for 10+ and watched his own son get through the Eagle process. Four of our committee members went through Woodbadge. Our Eagle adviser has done this for 8+ years and had his own son get Eagle. We know what is needed.

A good example is our most recent Eagle scout. A truly good and responsible kid. Not perfect, but what scout is. Here are a few of the issues he ran into.

• Non-returned phone and emails.
• Average turn around time was three plus weeks. The time was usually consumed at the district level.
• Three months into review being told to add a map to the local hospital. Unnecessary change and why wasn't he told during the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th reviews.
• Most of the communication was done through email. I honestly don't remember if the scout ever met the DAC person face-to-face.
• Review cycles that were one page at a time.
• Another time the district person lost the scout's paper work that included all the quotes, diagrams and key information
• It took almost a year to get approval. BUT only two weeks after we switched DAC contacts.
  

I talked with the district leaders and heard something similar to what you said. My gut says that #1 his DAC contact didn't have the time or organization to work with the scout and/or #2 he judged his project unworthy of eagle and were trying to slow him down or make him earn it through jumping through more hoops.

We finally found someone on the DAC who had a much more supportive view. That same scout got his project approved in two weeks after working with the new DAC contact. And the project paperwork was not that much different than what he originally started with. We had two other in-review scouts change their DAC contact to this person and they were quickly approved. We now send all our scouts to that person.

Our district is not the only one with issues. In a neighboring district, scouts often wait three to six months for their EBOR to be scheduled. Their DAC also has similar problems approving projects.

I very much appreciate the problems that DACs have dealing with scouts, their families and their troops. This is a very sensitive time with many hot attitudes and fingers can be pointed. It just seems that things can be handled better.

I have indicated I'd be willing to help from the DAC side. I hope it is not a case of watch out what you ask for, but I'd just hate to see this continue for years to come.

[smtroop168]

A good example is our most recent Eagle scout. A truly good and responsible kid. Not perfect, but what scout is. Here are a few of the issues he ran into.

• Non-returned phone and emails.
• Average turn around time was three plus weeks. The time was usually consumed at the district level.
• Three months into review being told to add a map to the local hospital. Unnecessary change and why wasn't he told during the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th reviews.
• Most of the communication was done through email. I honestly don't remember if the scout ever met the DAC person face-to-face.
• Review cycles that were one page at a time.
• Another time the district person lost the scout's paper work that included all the quotes, diagrams and key information
• It took almost a year to get approval. BUT only two weeks after we switched DAC contacts.

IMHO....The unit let this get out of control. If the SM and Eagle Advisor know the process as you say, then they did this scout a disservice. ALMOST A YEAR! C'MON!!!! Is there a Paul Harvey "rest of the story" on this?

In our district, we split the units into the 8 DAC members so the unit has a single go-to person. If we can't handle the scout due to timing then we find ourselves a replacement for that scout. We review the EP and then also are the DAC rep on the EBOR.

[Fred Johnson]

Your right, but how soon should troop leaders step into a youth run project. In hind site, we should have escalated this much faster at the DAC, CAC or scout exec level. We started wondering what was going on after five months or so. Up until that point, we were observing the scout trying to make progress on his own project. It is his project and scouts can takes awhile to get things written up and moving. Also years ago, every single scout went through multiple review cycles even with a perfect project write up. It seemed like part of the DAC approval was to make them go through multiple review cycles.

Once we finally did start wondering, it took many months of visiting with people and trying different things to finally find a resource that could help solve this.

We assumed we should wait to step in. In the future, we will get the CAC or scout exec involved quickly.

[ThunderingWind]

Ok, I will poor gasoline on the fire.....

How about recruiting the Eagle Project Receiving Organization to make a phone call the CE and state they are going to cancel the project because the DAC has taken too long to see that the Scout had everything in order. Have the organization further state
they felt the project as developed and present to them was ready to go (otherwise they would not have accepted it).

Maybe this will help remove the road blocks.

[smtroop168]

Your right, but how soon should troop leaders step into a youth run project. In hind site, we should have escalated this much faster at the DAC, CAC or scout exec level. We started wondering what was going on after five months or so. Up until that point, we were observing the scout trying to make progress on his own project. It is his project and scouts can takes awhile to get things written up and moving. Also years ago, every single scout went through multiple review cycles even with a perfect project write up. It seemed like part of the DAC approval was to make them go through multiple review cycles.

Once we finally did start wondering, it took many months of visiting with people and trying different things to finally find a resource that could help solve this.

We assumed we should wait to step in. In the future, we will get the CAC or scout exec involved quickly.

Lets see 12 months - 5 months = 7 months. I can do lots of firing people up in 7 months.

I understand its the scout's project but your Eagle Advisor dropped the ball. It's his job to keep a pulse on the scout's progress. Did the scout ask for any of the leaders help?

What was his project? You said that it takes awhile to get things written and moving. Did the scout present his project to the DAC as I mentioned earlier (not very well done?)

Does your council have a EP checklist?

What council are you in? It's not listed under your name.

Ok, I will poor gasoline on the fire.....

How about recruiting the Eagle Project Receiving Organization to make a phone call the CE and state they are going to cancel the project because the DAC has taken too long to see that the Scout had everything in order. Have the organization further state
they felt the project as developed and present to them was ready to go (otherwise they would not have accepted it).

Maybe this will help remove the road blocks.

Excellent point...depends on the sponsor and how often they sponsor EPs. Most times sponsors don't know the process but if it was a year, certainly the ones I know would be asking.

[evmori]

I honestly appreciate your comments. I've seen scouts, families and troop leaders who have really blown it. And it causes a big mess. The trouble is that DAC's also use the same responses to cover for their own poor performance and less than supportive attitudes. Plus, our DAC asks the scouts to contact them first before the troop reviews their project. It's as if the troop should be removed from the loop.

As for our troop, our scoutmaster has been in Boy Scouts for 19 years, scoutmaster for 10+ and watched his own son get through the Eagle process. Four of our committee members went through Woodbadge. Our Eagle adviser has done this for 8+ years and had his own son get Eagle. We know what is needed.

A good example is our most recent Eagle scout. A truly good and responsible kid. Not perfect, but what scout is. Here are a few of the issues he ran into.

• Non-returned phone and emails.
• Average turn around time was three plus weeks. The time was usually consumed at the district level.
• Three months into review being told to add a map to the local hospital. Unnecessary change and why wasn't he told during the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th reviews.
• Most of the communication was done through email. I honestly don't remember if the scout ever met the DAC person face-to-face.
• Review cycles that were one page at a time.
• Another time the district person lost the scout's paper work that included all the quotes, diagrams and key information
• It took almost a year to get approval. BUT only two weeks after we switched DAC contacts.
  

I talked with the district leaders and heard something similar to what you said. My gut says that #1 his DAC contact didn't have the time or organization to work with the scout and/or #2 he judged his project unworthy of eagle and were trying to slow him down or make him earn it through jumping through more hoops.

We finally found someone on the DAC who had a much more supportive view. That same scout got his project approved in two weeks after working with the new DAC contact. And the project paperwork was not that much different than what he originally started with. We had two other in-review scouts change their DAC contact to this person and they were quickly approved. We now send all our scouts to that person.

Our district is not the only one with issues. In a neighboring district, scouts often wait three to six months for their EBOR to be scheduled. Their DAC also has similar problems approving projects.

I very much appreciate the problems that DACs have dealing with scouts, their families and their troops. This is a very sensitive time with many hot attitudes and fingers can be pointed. It just seems that things can be handled better.

I have indicated I'd be willing to help from the DAC side. I hope it is not a case of watch out what you ask for, but I'd just hate to see this continue for years to come.

This is a shame! And Eagle project should take no more than a couple weeks to final approval! It appears someone thinks it's all about them!

[Cowboy]

Also keep in mind that some districts do not "assign" an Eagle Advisor until after the project is approved. I have seen this posted in other threads on this forum. In our district it is up to the boy to find someone to advise them.
*Our DAC requires that all fundraising be completed PRIOR to giving project approval.
*Sits on applications if they feel the boy is not old enough. Well, she used to.
I spoke with our Council exec at 7:40 on a Friday night and mentioned that it had been two weeks since the DAC received the paperwork from council. At 8:00 my phone rang with the DAC wanting to set up the EBoR. The next morning my son called the DAC back and arranged the board for 10 days later. About an hour later the DAC called back with a scheduling conflict and suggested moving it up by a week. The next boy listed me as his Eagle advisor. Took 2 weeks from SMC to EBoR with no conflicts. He was younger than my son by a year.

[fritz1255]

If this helps at all, a couple of suggestions:

1) Have the scout do his writeup electronically, in MSWord or something equivalent rather than on paper. The writeup looks far more professional, changes can be made easily, and the writeup cannot be "lost" (assuming he backs it up on a disc). As someone who essentially writes proposals and scopes of work for a living, I would NEVER want to go back to the old paper system of doing this - too difficult and time consuming.

2) Troop leadership needs to review the project carefully and not even send it on to the DAC until they are satisfied with it. We have been guilty in the past of approving projects that were way too ambitous, but no longer. Lots easier to review (can be sent to multiple people by EMail for careful review) if it is done eletronlically rather than having the scout show up at your door with his workbook for your approval.

[evmori]

The problem seems to be the DAC's seem to think this is about them. It is about the Scout! The write-up doesn't have to be a thesis but it should be complete. The final approval should take no more than a couple weeks. The rewrites should be minimal. And extra crap like "All fundraising must be done prior" should not be added or tolerated.

[smtroop168]

Also keep in mind that some districts do not "assign" an Eagle Advisor until after the project is approved. I have seen this posted in other threads on this forum. In our district it is up to the boy to find someone to advise them.
*Our DAC requires that all fundraising be completed PRIOR to giving project approval.
*Sits on applications if they feel the boy is not old enough. Well, she used to.
I spoke with our Council exec at 7:40 on a Friday night and mentioned that it had been two weeks since the DAC received the paperwork from council. At 8:00 my phone rang with the DAC wanting to set up the EBoR. The next morning my son called the DAC back and arranged the board for 10 days later. About an hour later the DAC called back with a scheduling conflict and suggested moving it up by a week. The next boy listed me as his Eagle advisor. Took 2 weeks from SMC to EBoR with no conflicts. He was younger than my son by a year.

What? The troop should assign an Eagle Advisor/Mentor.

Your DAC should be removed as well.

[Fred Johnson]

I wanted to share some really good news.

Our district advancement committee (DAC) has done a 180. New leadership. A consistent philosophy. Open, supportive leadership. I am very impressed. What I didn't realize was that the DAC had an internal schism of philosophy and some leaders that just did not have the time to support the scouts. So the delays and lack of response was partially an attitude of "make them earn it" and partially some volunteers who just didn't have the time to meet with the scouts.

I started this thread with frustration because of how several of our life scouts were being treated by the DAC. Or, more accurately lack of treatment. Two of them wanted to give up because of the DAC. And over the last few months as I've pursued this, I've heard from several other troops were having trouble too.

Well, our troop now has three fresh new Eagle scouts with three or four more on the way over the next year. Please realize that our troop does not push Eagle scouts. It's up to them. We support them. We encourage them. But, it's fully their achievement to earn. The main reason for all the Eagles right now is a tight group of friends encouraging each other.

I'm not sure which DAC change I like the best but there are several.

• No emails. The scout is expected to call and talk person-to-person with the DAC. It's a quick phone conversation about the project and situation (age, troop, time spans, personal schedules).
• Then, they meet face-to-face to review the project plan. Nothing fancy or formal. The DAC staff will meet them at the scout's house, troop meeting, DAC person's house or anywhere they can work out. Two deep leadership observed of course. This was done with each of our scouts and they had their district approval within a few weeks of the phone call. The main delay now is the scout making the final changes.
• EBORs are still scheduled as needed, but there are standing time slots before (and sometimes during) each of the district round tables. It makes getting enough leaders together a much more manageable situation.

The key point is that the DAC is trying to make it as easy as possible to work with them. They are not to be a hoop or an obstacle. They really seem like their attitude is that they are there to support the scout. I like that.

Thanks for everyone's feedback.

[smtroop168]

Fred...you still don't show what council you are from so we can export your success to other councils that need it.

[lambeausam]

That's a great update!

[jr56]

Glad to hear about the improvements.

[Mrw]

When the application is turned in, I meet with the Scout. We go over the application line by line. It is amazing how many Scouts do not want to invest the 30 minutes to do this and then become frustrated when we do not obtain approval from Council to hold the EBOR. It is also amazing how many Scouts have Merit Badge issues that need to get clarified before we can obtain permission from Council to hold the EBOR (Blue cards not signed by the counselor or a Troop representative - how were they processed to award the MB, not enough MBs earned by the Date of the Star, Life BOR, or joining Boy Scouts in December 15th and then having s signed MB for Family Life dated January 20th.

Asking the Scout to get these challenges addressed is a no win situation.

I added the bold for emphasis.

Why would the DAC be checking blue cards for signatures before an Eagle app goes to Council? Not only are blue cards not required, once the advancement has been submitted and entered into Scoutnet, all you need to confirm is that it was entered on the scout's record.

Our DAC approves the project and is available to consult with for related questions, but does expect the troop to follow through and ensure all the paperwork is completed before submission to Council. Once they double-check the dates are in line, they then forward it back to the DAC for scheduling of the EBOR. We expect our scouts to have the paperwork completed and it is gone over as a last check at the SMC. There are several of us who repeatedly tell the boys we are available to answer questions or help out if they need advice.

[RMM]

I added the bold for emphasis.

Why would the DAC be checking blue cards for signatures before an Eagle app goes to Council? Not only are blue cards not required, once the advancement has been submitted and entered into Scoutnet, all you need to confirm is that it was entered on the scout's record.

Our DAC approves the project and is available to consult with for related questions, but does expect the troop to follow through and ensure all the paperwork is completed before submission to Council. Once they double-check the dates are in line, they then forward it back to the DAC for scheduling of the EBOR. We expect our scouts to have the paperwork completed and it is gone over as a last check at the SMC. There are several of us who repeatedly tell the boys we are available to answer questions or help out if they need advice.

The Council Advancement Commitee expects this to be done to prevent snags in the process when the Eagle Application is processed by the Eagle Desk. By doing this process, we have been able to fix many date issues that have prevented the Eagle Application from being processed. I agree Blue Cards are not required, yet they are a tool. Many of the Troops in the Council have many challenges using the tool. However, that is a discussion for a different thread.