Messages moved from MeritBadge.comwagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 06:29 pm Post subject:
AS far as I know. I will check with Colleen on Monday
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Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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BM_Crawford
Life
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 131
Location: PA W/F Council
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 07:11 pm Post subject:
Alright thanks alot! Also could you email me the date for the
OA weekend again. Sorry I forgot. Thanks!
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Brian Crawford
Troop 251
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wagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 08 Aug 2004 08:46 pm Post subject:
The first Class Certificate is still made it is
WW34104
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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Guneukitschik
Life
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 09:37 am Post subject:
Why would they have a special certificate for First Class and
not any other rank except for Eagle? Seems like a waste of
resources!
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Buffalo Bill
First Class
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 11:17 am Post subject: First Class
Certificate
Yes the certificate is still available. I can't tell you the
number off the top of my head, but your Council Service Center
ought to be able to help you find it. They used to cost about
$.75 each.
B2
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Bill Britt
Scoutmaster
Troop 509
Hurlburt Field, FL
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wagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 11:38 am Post subject:
The Number is listed in this forum take a look.
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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ICanCanoeCanU
Second Class
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 08:24 pm Post subject: First Class -
First Year
You folks are a hoot on this one! Glad to see the humor.
OK, here I ago again and you won’t like it but… I don’t agree
at all with the First Class – First Year concept. I would like
to see more time requirements in the earlier ranks partly to
prevent the hurry. So what if some youth don’t stay with the
program, not everyone has what it takes to be in scouts.
Sports are a perfect example of this. Cuts after cuts in the
middle school & high school level of sports. Except guess
what, in sports it doesn’t matter how much the boy is
interested in the sport, if they aren’t good enough, they get
cut. This is one of the reasons I love the scout program.
Everyone is welcome, and should be allowed to
progress/participate at whatever level they want. No one is
cut from anything unless it’s unsafe for him to participate.
(Like someone who can’t swim not being allowed to do the mile
swim, etc.) Many times I’ve seen the young scouts that say
they don’t care about advancement or badges turn around when
they reach 13 - 15 years old. This is the beauty of watching
them grow and being allowed to advance at individual levels. .
Please read my post on “age of Eagle”, as these two subjects
go hand in hand and I’m too tired to re-type it all.
I would like to see a 4-month time requirement between Scout
and Tenderfoot, then 6 months between all the other
requirements. This would still allow someone to achieve the
Eagle rank by about 14-15 and have plenty of time for other
advanced opportunities in the BSA world such as Explorers,
Venturing. Or just enjoy the scout program for more years. Why
take a program with so much to offer and rush them through it
like getting the Eagle is the only goal? What about being a
scout for all the other reasons.
Besides, if everyone is in such a hurry to obtain the rank of
Eagle, then no wonder many troops suffer from a lack of old
scouts. How many of the 13 – 14 year olds are still involved
in troops when they’re 17? Who’s now considered an older scout
to take on such positions as SPL? Our troop has had 20 – 22
year old Eagle scouts come back and volunteer to go on
campouts and even summer camp as adults because they enjoyed
the many years they spent in the troop and want to give back
to the younger ones. They also have said going to summer camp
as an adult now gave them another learning experience being on
the other side of things. Btw – scouts in our troop now at 17
were only Tenderfoot in the troop when the returning adult
Eagle scouts were in the troop still working on Eagle. Some of
the younger scouts have often mentioned how they watched the
older ones during their Eagle Ceremonies and knew this was
where they wanted to be someday. Now there are memories and
goals being set.
Glad our troop doesn’t know about the certificate. Shhhh,
don’t tell them. Let the rank advancement and
self-gratification work it’s magic on it’s own. Of course,
parents, leaders and other scouts should always congratulate
the scout for their progress.
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Guneukitschik
Life
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 07:58 am Post subject:
I see where you are coming from....but it seems if a scout
earns the rank of First Class within a year they are more
likely to stick it out throughout the scouting programs....
There will always be scouts that advance more rapidly than
others even with expanded requirements.
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wagionvigil
Counselor
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 08:23 am Post subject:
Our troop has never pushed the First class in a year. We
expect the scouts to work at their own pace but at camp they
MUST do the First Year camper program, this does put a big
dent in the requirements. We schedule activities etc over the
year and there is opportunity at these to complete more
requirements . Of course all boys do not attend all events.
Usually most will complete First class by the end oif their
second year at Scout camp.
During the winter months the troop will work on a couple of
the required MB that are not outdoor oriented.
Citizenships,Family Life Etc. In the past 6 years I have had 5
Eagles ( small troop) All but one finished just prior to their
18th BD. I have found that after age 16 you really have to
push them and sometimes they just wait too long.
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"
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Guneukitschik
Life
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 08:52 am Post subject:
Our troop approaches merit badges in a similar way...they are
not forced to complete them...
once in a while during a meeting we may have a presentation
about a merit badge... once we brought in a car and a mechanic
showed the troop how to check/change the oil, how to change a
tire, etc. A few of them then went on to complete the Auto
Mechanics Merit badge.
Ranks seem to work the same way... there are always a few
scouts that you just have to help them start it and they are
flying through the requirements.
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 09:09 am Post subject:
If you sit down and look at the requirements to get to first
class, how could you not finish them in a year.
The requirements are not hard, some require some effort, if
you have weekly meetings, thats 50+ meetings not counting
campouts to complete the first class.
I think if your scouts are not finishing First class in a
year, there is a program problem or you have a scout who just
does not want to be there.
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Bob Torkelson
Scoutmaster Troop 538
www.wx5troop538.homestead.comLive The Oath!
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Guneukitschik
Life
Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 09:16 am Post subject:
There will always be that scout that doesn't want to be there
but is forced to be a scout by their parents
Our troop has even had scouts that don't care about the
advancement...they just like to go camping, hiking, etc... but
by doing the activities at the meetings and outings they even
make it to first class...and they aren't even trying....(of
course it ususally takes longer than a year)
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evmori
Tenderfoot
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 13
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 02:17 pm Post subject:
I never liked the idea of rushing through ranks and that's
what FCFY seems to be. I would like to see some stats on this
to see if it's really working.
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Ed Mori
Troop 1
1 Peter 4:10
Last edited by evmori on 12 Aug 2004 05:16 am; edited 1 time
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ICanCanoeCanU
Second Class
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 20
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 03:50 pm Post subject: First Year -
First Class
Our troop does participate in the first year programs at camp
and I'm not saying that a scout cannot make first class in a
year. I'm saying I don't like the idea of it being a phrased
goal. I've also read in the past, where the objective was one
rank in one year which other than scout and tenderfoot, I
think are more reasonable suggestions.
Any time someone new hears, first class - first year, they
assume this is just the way all scouts progress. This can make
the boys that do not complete this feel they've failed in
their first year. I just think too many folks are in this
program for the wrong reasons. If most scouts cross in from
Cub scouts, they average the age of 11, now if scouts have
until their 18th birthday why do so many folks try to have
Eagles in the first three years?
As the rank advancement coordinator of our troop (and having
the paperwork from the last 30 years in my possesion), I can
see where most of our Eagle scouts took 2 years to rank first
class. Not because they couldn't complete all the requirements
but because our troop does not push the advancement and ER
MB's as the main goal of the program. We encourage the
greenbar members to use spare meeting time to go over scouts
books to see where people are and to encourage them to
continue progressing. We remind the younger scouts especially,
to ask older boys on campouts to help them complete tasks. We
make the scout be more responsible for taking the action where
I see some other troop adults are always approaching the
younger scouts. This to me does not teach them to be
accountable for their path.
We also have guests come in and expose the scouts to many
hobbies and I agree that the hope is someone will find a new
hobby. We also do activities where several requirements are
met on a MB and strive for some to take this and finish the
badge. Our SM is the MBC for pioneering and about every other
year the troop has a campout where he guarantees anyone on the
campout will earn this badge. The troop spends time for a few
meetings prior to the campout to learn and prepare to complete
the badge. Then on the campout, the scouts build things with
their new skills to complete this badge. Sometimes they build
a monkey bridge across a large creek or a tower large and
strong enough to stand in. This is usually one of the boys
favorite campouts.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 09:14 am Post subject: FYC
I tend to have faith in First Year Camper programs (FYC). I
wouldn't dare to force my first year boys into the program and
say they MUST atttend. After all, whose summer camp experience
is it anyway? Not mine.
I do encourage the FYC. Momma always told me that you attract
more bees with honey than with vinegar. I start with the
parents of the new scout and explain the virtues of the
program. I also talk with the boys. I've found that they tend
to encourage each other and enjoy staying with their buddies.
I've never had a boy refuse to do FYC.
My support of the program comes from when I was the Program
Director for the Far East Council's summer camp in 1990. I
also served as the FYC director. For that council, it was a
relatively new program and I had carte blanche. Sold me on the
program.
The most effective FYCs I've seen are those that use the
patrol method and outside help, AKA attending adult leaders,
to assist. Break the boys up into patrols and assign a youth
staffer, preferably two, to a patrol. By patrols, I don't mean
8 boy patrols either--smaller, the smaller the better, but
probably no less than 4 boys. Highly encourage adult
participation from the Troops, explaining the reason. Reason?
Individalized attention and discipline. Can't expect an 11
year old (or me either) to really learn how to tie a knot en
masse with the rest of the boys. Ain't gonna happen.
Unfortunately, all too often I've seen most FYC Scouts attend
without any unit adult participation. FYC Scouts are excited
youngin's. Woe the FYC director that doesn't get any support
from the boy's unit. He has to quickly control the group of
excited youngsters, and try to do it timely and pleasantly.
With unit adults there, the boys tend to settle down a little
and make the job of controlling the group much, much, easier.
Helps the staff concentrate on content too! If units control
disciplne, the FYC staff can project a consistant cheerful
pleasantness that nurtures bonding with the boys.
The most effective FYCs I've seen use the 4 steps we all
should probably use. A Scout learns. A Scout is tested. A
Scout is reviewed. A Scout is recognized.
Teach the boys. Depending on the subject, this could be
conducted as a lecture/discussion in a group. The group does
not necessarily equate to the whole group. Why not use the
Patrol Method again. A well trained staffer, a youth, is more
effective, in most cases, than having the FYC director trying
to maintain control of, AND effectively convey the subject
matter and answer questions. For most scoutcraft items, all of
us benefit more from individualized attention. There have to
be enough scoutcraft supplies to handle all the boys in the
FYC, or stations must be used with effective progression of
the patrols through those stations.
Test the boys. Let another youth staffer test the Scout, and
right after the boy learns may not always be the best idea. If
the actual testing can be conducted after a short amount of
time, it assists in the evaluation of retention--will the boy
remember what he learned? Use the boys that tested well to
help the other boys having a more difficult time with the
subject matter--sometimes a buddy can help when no one else is
getting through. Using the FYC boys to help each other helps
the unit's program too--never too early to train the trainer.
Review the boys. Now, we can use the adults more here. After
learning and testing with a youth, let the boys "show off"
their new found skills to an adult leader. Any adult, at least
any that should be at camp, can give praise and encouragment.
I don't like the idea of the FYC staff signing off
requirements except on a record to be presented to the SM
afterwards. Handbook entries are probably best left up to the
unit. That also allows the SM to ensure the boy has retained
the knowledge prior to sending him off for the real
review--the Board of Review.
Recognize the boys. Now here's where the fun stuff comes up.
It's a great way to build pride and identity. I've seen temp
patches used mostly. Some councils use a FYC "flap" worn where
the OA flap is normally worn. These are usually awarded at the
end of the week. An effective immediate recognition that could
be used is a bead recognition--use a small fob and a system of
beads to denote accomplishments in the program. This type of
recognition system is most likely already familiar to most of
the boys via cubbies.
First Class, First year? Nice concept? Yep, I've seen the boys
actually work with each other more to help each other out.
Buddy system in action. Always the best route? Nope, I've had
some boys try to rush it and come into their SM conference
poorly prepared. Really hurts to send a boy back to study
more.
I like the idea, but I don't push it to the extent that it is
expected of the boy. I suggest that if he does work, and
faithfully attends meetings and outings, he can be First Class
in time for OA elections. This also lends to talking with the
boy about the OA and letting our OA rep address the boys about
why some of the boys have Flaps, what they mean, and what the
OA brothers get to do.
We don't try to have 12 or 13 year old Eagles. Since December
2002, we have had 5 Eagles, 3 were turning 18, 2 were turning
17. All had been Life for "a long time" Two were Life for 3
years or more. One for over 2 years. Two for over a year.
I do have a fast burner now. A scout since February, he is now
First Class. Is just waiting his tenure for Star. He was
selected by the SPL to be one of the ASPLs. Needs only two ER
MBs for Life. I'm not gonna try to throttle him back. I do
talk with him and as long as he gives me logical answers as to
why he's pushing it I'm happy. When he starts looking like
he's not having fun or stressing, then I'll get concerned.
B2
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Bill Britt
Scoutmaster
Troop 509
Hurlburt Field, FL
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