Board of Review-Ever Turn Down a Scout For Any Rank?

[wagionvigil]

I just thought of a question?
Is this an LDS Troop?

[evmori]

I just thought of a question?
Is this an LDS Troop?

Good question. Troop 94, 940 are charted by an LDS churches just to name a few.

[ronin718]

Alright now, let's not start bashing the LDS folks again. I've seen these kinds of things on non-LDS units as well. This isn't limited to the red-headed stepchildren from Utah.

That aside, there are several clues that this is NOT an LDS troop...

- This troop went to Philmont. There aren't many LDS units that would fork out that kind of money.
- They're in full uniform. This would be an EXTREME rarity in LDS units. Most LDS units barely get by in shirts.
- Both the BOR and the CoH were/are being held on a Monday. No LDS unit ever meets on Mondays. Mondays are reserved for Family Home Evening.

[smtroop168]

Thank you for the posts.The suggestions about moving to another troop are unrealistic- most of his friends are in this troop.In addition, my other two sons are in the troop.I have gotten E-mails from other parents telling me to "suck it up" and move on.More than one has said that their kids did not pass the BOR but they came back. Others have supported the BOR decision-one saying that " it isn't a gimmie". I believe that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a BOR is in this troop.The same night 3 other kids were turned down, 2 for uniform violations (no Scout socks).My son wants to let this drop because he is already embarassed.The Court of Honor is next Monday-I don't want him to spend the time watching other kids advance, including the son of the Board member who told him that he couldn't advance.Doesn't the BSA have some responsibility to make sure that advancement policies are uniform(poor choice of word)? When did the BOR become an Inquisition?

Advancement Policies are uniform....it's the moronic interpretation of the policies such as this that are not. The BSA relies on local councils who rely on Council and District Advancement Committees to "enforce" the written policies.

[smtroop168]

Alright now, let's not start bashing the LDS folks again. I've seen these kinds of things on non-LDS units as well. This isn't limited to the red-headed stepchildren from Utah.

That aside, there are several clues that this is NOT an LDS troop...

- This troop went to Philmont. There aren't many LDS units that would fork out that kind of money.
- They're in full uniform. This would be an EXTREME rarity in LDS units. Most LDS units barely get by in shirts.
- Both the BOR and the CoH were/are being held on a Monday. No LDS unit ever meets on Mondays. Mondays are reserved for Family Home Evening.

He's right..there are plenty of other troops sponsored by many different faiths that make life difficult for the boys.

[AquilaNegra2]

Even IF the bolo was a valid reason (it's not -- but, did the Scout know they were going to require this?), waiting three months for the next BOR is ludicrous. 3 months is the next available opportunity?

We've turned down three in the lower ranks in the past month -- Surprising to me because it's the first time I can remember someone being turned down. All were because they had blanks in their books. The SM should have caught these in his SM conference. They were things the boys had done (and we knew they had), but didn't get a signature for. "Failed" them each in turn, told them the board would next reconvene in 15 minutes, and sent them scurrying. They all passed the second time. Highly doubtful that any of them will ever again come in without their ducks in a row.

Sometimes it's more about training the SCOUTMASTER .

[alex gregory]

Even IF the bolo was a valid reason (it's not -- but, did the Scout know they were going to require this?), waiting three months for the next BOR is ludicrous. 3 months is the next available opportunity?

We've turned down three in the lower ranks in the past month -- Surprising to me because it's the first time I can remember someone being turned down. All were because they had blanks in their books. The SM should have caught these in his SM conference. They were things the boys had done (and we knew they had), but didn't get a signature for. "Failed" them each in turn, told them the board would next reconvene in 15 minutes, and sent them scurrying. They all passed the second time. Highly doubtful that any of them will ever again come in without their ducks in a row.

Sometimes it's more about training the SCOUTMASTER .

Exactly. The only time I've ever had an issue at BOR was when there were blanks in the handbook. The BOR was suspended for 10 minutes, the signatures were obtained, and we immediately reconvened after reminding Super Scout to tuck in his shirt. If you're going to wear your shirt, at least tuck it in!

[scoutaholic]

I was SM for 10 years, and only saw two boys fail a BOR. In both cases, it was something I could agree with.

The first was a young boy up for TF. He apparently didn't know the Oath and Law as well as I thought (or was too nervous to come close in-front-of the Board). They told him he couldn't advance until he was able to repeat it for the board. He came back to troop meeting, clearly upset by it, borrowed a book and sat down to review/relearn it. He passed the BOR later the same night. In this case, I'm sure it served as a learning experience for the boy and I'm sure he has always made sure to be prepared for the BOR since. He is now 18 and an Eagle with multiple palms. He later served as SPL and as JASM, and has been a good help and leadership example to the troop for several years.

The second boy who failed the BOR was for the same reason. He was older (15 or 16) and hadn't been very involved for a while. He was up for Star, and couldn't repeat the Oath and Law. He was told that he passed everything but that, and would be counted as passing as soon as he could repeat the Oath and Law to a particular board member. The boy went home, didn't do anything about passing off, watched his friends advance at the COH, and seemed to completely forget about it. Several months later, his parents asked about his advancement and pushed him to prepare for a new BOR. This boy has never (neither before or after this failed BOR) appeared to be very interrested in advancement, or in scouting in-general. His parents push him to participate in some activities, and they push his advancement. His Venture crew does nothing to help him. He is a Life scout, and 17. If he gets Eagle it will be because his parents were able to push him into it. I'm not sure how they can push him into leading a project.

[pmeikel]

This is a topic that has frustrated me for the last several years. I believe that the BOR is a formality. If the scoutmaster has done his job and verified everything has been completed then there is no (legitimate) reason to not allow a boy to advance. I have seen a BOR reject a boy because of scout spirit. They said that he lacked a commitment to scouting because he had attended only 43% of the activities and they wanted to see more than 50% attendance. I was very disappointed in our committee members on the board. This makes a BOR nothing more than a popularity contest. The "popular" boys (at least with certain committee members) get approved and the other boys are told that they lack "scout spirit."

[wagionvigil]

ATtendance is not a requirement and will not be taken into consideratiion in any advancement. AT leaste this is the way it is supposed to be.

[jr56]

Yes, I have "deferred' a BOR for several minutes while a discrepency in sign offs was resolved. I have seen a boy turned down twice trying to advance to Life, because he couldn't recall information contained in Cit. in the World MB, which he was using for that rank. (I had nothing to do with this) I voiced my protest, but it got nowhere.

[wagionvigil]

Yes, I have "deferred' a BOR for several minutes while a discrepency in sign offs was resolved. I have seen a boy turned down twice trying to advance to Life, because he couldn't recall information contained in Cit. in the World MB, which he was using for that rank. (I had nothing to do with this) I voiced my protest, but it got nowhere.

The BOR was Bogus as You cannot question a scout about any MB.

[ThunderingWind]

The BOR was Bogus as You cannot question a scout about any MB.

We can still ask "Tell me what you think was the most import thing you learned about MB xyz" or "What did you learn in MB xzy that surprised you?"

Questions can be phased to see how well the Scout is retaining what he learned (something that needs to be check IMHO) without violating any BSA
policy, rule or guideline as long as the Scout's answer is not used to judge whether or not he advances.

Frankly, i ask most of hte Scouts these types of questions to get to know them better, learn how they view a particular MC, how they liked or disliked the
the MB etc..........

It is all in how one asks the question.

I also ask what was the favorite, least liked, most challenging, easiest, and then follow with why?

[wagionvigil]

Apparantly this boy was turned doen BECAUSE of those questions.

[ThunderingWind]

Apparantly this boy was turned doen BECAUSE of those questions.

Then that board needs to be removed from Scouting.

[Mrw]

We often ask a boy about things he has learned from a merit badge. And things he does not seem to be able to recall from badges like First Aid, that he really does need to know, we encourage him to go back and keep reviewing so he can help younger boys with the subject. We will not turn a boy down because of not recalling anything he learned, but if it consistently an issue with a particular counselor, I will stop giving out that name as a resource.

[smtroop168]

Most times it comes down to a lack of training of BOR members. (where have we seen or heard that before). Certainly a BOR is not a free pass/check the block evolution. The BOR's responsibilities are

To make sure the work has been learned and completed. The Scout should be asked where he learned his skill, who taught him, and the value he gained from passing this requirement.
This is where the "retesting" obligation some BOR members feel is their job comes from. However that being said, if the scout cannot answer basic questions and the BOR doesn't feel he has learned the requirement, they should not advance him but rather point out what he needs to work on. This is also why some troops don't allow scouts to sign off scouts because if its signed, its completed.

To check to see what kind of experience the boy is having in his patrol and troop. Most important to be as SM

To encourage the Scout to advance to the next rank. Of course.