Patrol Position count twd Rank?

[OldGreyBear]

I've been known as the Troop Cheermaster for quite a few years now, didnt know a skirt was required

[West]

Just saying, boys arn't going to care for the name 'Cheermaster'

[t305spl]

I think the name fits the position. Sounds like it raises morale, which it really does. Hey but thats just my opinion.

[schneizenator]

If he is in that position yes. If he was awarded the patch and is assigned in that position either in the patrol or troop its still that position. So yes both qualify to cover that req.

Sorry, buddy, you're wrong. The positions stated in the Boy Scout Handbook only refer to the levels on troop positions (thats why Assistant Patrol leader doesn't count but ASPL does) the only exception is Patrol leader.

[t305spl]

The position in the book says Quartermaster, not Troop Quartermaster. The book says Scribe, not Troop Scribe. The patches you get are the same there is know Troop Quartermaster and Patrol Quartermaster its Quartermaster. So why cant a Quartermaster in a patrol which is probabily a harder job than a troop quartermaster. In my troop there is a Quartermaster and Scribe in each patrol and they report to the ASPL's its easier that way for us. I consider that position a POR. Why not? What havent they done that a Troop Quartermaster that some troops have did?

[optimist]

I tend not to argue Paul. We've worked together and helped each other for many years now and he deserves the respect noted above. As such, it was with much trepidation that I made my earlier post. I am now reversing my position, not because of what Paul said but because of the following from commish3:

if you look at the requirement under the life rank it is even more specific saying
"While a Star Scout, serve actively for six months in one or more of the troop positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout "

That should show definitively that the requirement refers to troop and not patrol offices.

I disagree that this is "definitive" because it is still possible to interpret "troop positions of responsibility" as being any position within the troop, even at the patrol level. Even so, I think the language used here more strongly supports your argument than mine. Rick Taylor's statement that it hasn't had any adverse affect on his large troop was reassuring but I still have reservations.

To say "Please show me where it says PATROL positions do not count." as a way of proving that they do, is a logic fallicy called of false dilemma specifically called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" or argument of ignorance. It says that since you cannot prove what I say is false, then it must be true.

Despite my reversal, this argument didn't help your case. "Argumentum ad ignorantiam" generally only applies in two circumstances. Usually it is applied even though an argument is being made against proof already in evidence. Since the evidence provided is open to interpretation, this is not the case. On occasion it is also applied to an argument where proof can not be provided by either party. Unfortunately, if the burden of proof cannot be carried by either party then both parties are equally guilty of "argumentum ad ignorantiam". In the arguments presented in this thread, evidence is available for both parties arguments, it simply isn't definitive.

[vpalango]

I just finished reading this thread, and the theme of the actual argument seems (to me ) to focus around providing enough PORs, especially in larger Troops. In my opinion, I agree that the various Patrol positions (other than PL) probably do not meet the spirit of the requirement.

However, turning the issue around, I think that we need to be focused on making best use of the PORs avaialble to us as leaders effectively. In this regard I'd like to focus on one position specifically, Den Chiefs.

In any of the examples previously stated, the "problem" seems to be around providing enough PORs, especially in large units.... So, if there are large Troops, I assume that there must also be large Packs in the area.

There is virtually no limit to the number of Den Chiefs which a Troop can support. In my town, there are two scout troops, and in the cub packs therre are 12 dens (until crossover later this month). At present there are 2 den chiefs.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are more than enough PORs to spread around, if you use all the positions effectively. By the way, this also relates to the thread about "What's wrong in scouting" back in the campfire area. We'd have alot less problem getting/supporting leadership at the cub-scout level, if there were more Den Chiefs to support the cub packs.

I'm not saying that this is a complete solution to the problem, but today we need to look hard at ways we can solve multiple problems, and I think that Den Chiefs are an under-utilized resource in troops/packs.

[teepeeayy]

In any of the examples previously stated, the "problem" seems to be around providing enough PORs, especially in large units.... So, if there are large Troops, I assume that there must also be large Packs in the area.

There is virtually no limit to the number of Den Chiefs which a Troop can support. In my town, there are two scout troops, and in the cub packs therre are 12 dens (until crossover later this month). At present there are 2 den chiefs.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are more than enough PORs to spread around, if you use all the positions effectively. By the way, this also relates to the thread about "What's wrong in scouting" back in the campfire area. We'd have alot less problem getting/supporting leadership at the cub-scout level, if there were more Den Chiefs to support the cub packs.

Welcome to the Forum! I climbed onto my soap box because of Den Chiefs. See these posts:

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=322

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=322

http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=396

[ASM-142]

Unless I am missing something one of the positions listed is Patrol Leader.

[GonnabeEagle]

Hey, I was reading about your concern.. and remembered that my dad is advancement chairman for my troop and has access to Troopmaster. Anyways, I was looking at Troopmaster compared to the requirement in the handbook and found that NO PATROL POSITIONS count except Patrol Leader. When the handbook states the positions that can fill that requirement, they are stating all Troop-level positions or part of the Patrol Leaders' Council. So technically; patrol scribe, patrol quartermaster, and assistant patrol leader do not meet that requirement. All other troop positions count. Glad to be of service!

David