Rank advancement tests

[Scouting179]

WHere it says "a scout is tested" means he does what the requirement says, not that someone gives him a written graded test.

[deweylure]

As you already know ,no tests.

Try scouting skills as a regular feature at a meeting. If the scouts do not practice the skills they have learned they will most likely forget.

dewey

[jr56]

There are very few instances (a few merit badge sessions at summer camp come to mind) where a written test may be useful. But for the most part I stay away from them because they are too much like school.

[ASM-142]

There are very few instances (a few merit badge sessions at summer camp come to mind) where a written test may be useful. But for the most part I stay away from them because they are too much like school.

A written test may be useful but it is not allowed.

[WVBeaver05]

...Even, given the canoeing example, in a group -- the leader can point out something on a canoe and have a scout name the part, it takes only about 5 minutes per scout (on an individual basis)...

That would certainly be my choice, given time. However, with 16 Scouts, 5 minutes each is 80 minutes - or over 1.5 days of Merit Badge class (we had 50 minutes per day). Compare to 5 minutes total to have them write the answers and the councelor checks them outside of the time that the Scouts are there giving significantly more time to training and the skills that have to be demonstrated to the instructor. I think I would still be inclined to have the Scouts write the answers down to this one so I could spend more time on the other skills AND one on one time with the Scouts that didn't get all the parts identified correctly.

...or in a group the leader can randomly call on each member of the group to name the part that is being indicated.

I am opposed to this in all Merit Badges and advancements. By my interpretation, each Scout must perform the all requirements not just part of them.

Just my thoughts.

YiS

[WVBeaver05]

There are very few instances (a few merit badge sessions at summer camp come to mind) where a written test may be useful. But for the most part I stay away from them because they are too much like school.

A written test may be useful but it is not allowed.

I'm always interested in learning and others opinions so could you explain why you believe that a written test is not allowed? The closest I can come, based on what I know at this point, would be that some argue that this is adding to the requirements. I don't see it that way (although there are cases where it could be). In my previous example of identify the parts of a canoe it would seem to me that the requirement doesn't specify how to identify them, so either orally or in writing would meet the requirement without additions.

Please let me know what you think on this one.

YiS

[FrankJ]

To say you have to pass a written test when the requirement doesn't say that would be adding to the requirements which is not allowed. Using a written to show that a requirement as an option is allowed.

A good example wood be the show signs flora / fauna requirements. This is demonstrated at summer camp typically by sketching & notes. It can also be done, (perhaps better), by walking in the woods

[maricopasem]

There are very few instances (a few merit badge sessions at summer camp come to mind) where a written test may be useful. But for the most part I stay away from them because they are too much like school.

A written test may be useful but it is not allowed.

I'm always interested in learning and others opinions so could you explain why you believe that a written test is not allowed? The closest I can come, based on what I know at this point, would be that some argue that this is adding to the requirements. I don't see it that way (although there are cases where it could be). In my previous example of identify the parts of a canoe it would seem to me that the requirement doesn't specify how to identify them, so either orally or in writing would meet the requirement without additions.

Please let me know what you think on this one.

YiS

I think that's a great question, and I'd like to put a little twist on it. Let's say a boy wants to pass off the Rifle Shooting MB and brings his rifle to the appointment with the counselor. What if the counselor tells him he cannot use the gun to point out the three main parts of a rifle, etc., but must instead take a written exam? Can the counselor dictate how a boy passes off the requirements, or does the boy have some say in how it happens?

[Billiken]

To require a Scout to write something when the MB requirement is "show," "demonstrate," "discuss," etc., is likely not appropriate.

My 7th grade son just took a science quiz re parts of a microscope.
He studied hard and absolutely knew all 12 parts.

The written test was matching a description of the part to the part name.
He scored 50% (10 out of 20).

I told him to ask the teacher if he could name the parts on an actual microscope (and describe what they do).
He did and his score was adjusted to 100%.

If the requirement says SHOW then the scout must show.
If a class at summer camp can't comply...then get more counselors.

I'm in absolute agreement with Wagionvigil on this.
Absolutely no modifications/additions to rank or MB requirements (except in the case of scouts with disabilities).

[cballman]

Billiken the example that you used on the microscope was great for both sides. I also like using the worksheets to have the kids write down the names of parts of the canoe. if a child has a problem with writing them down then I will talk to him and let him do it orally. just also stop and think if you had to add more people at summer camp how much extra would it cost per child? then again think if the price of summer camp doubled how many of us could send our own kids? while I dont like written test at all my self but in some cases it makes it easier on some kids. now what would you have said if the teacher wouldnt let your son do it orally and gave him a 50%? I feel the same way about my scouts if they need help I will go out of my way to help them if I see a problem.

[Mrw]

We had an interesting discussion on this last night at our committee meeting.

The CC proposed that we ask all boys at their BOR's some basic questions about first aid and other basic scout stuff that they should have known for prior ranks. And that if they didn't know the answers, we should end the BOR and send them back to study for the next week.

We all agreed that was not the purpose of the BOR and that we should definitely not do that. (He did too, after a short discussion.) But it did spark a pretty productive discussion about how to get the boys to practice and review this type of thing more often to make sure they really have learned it.

We are going to have the SM ask the PLC to include some review sessions for the troop on basic skills in their meeting plans for the next several weeks. This should get the scouts back up to speed by the time the next bunch of new kids crosses over in the spring.

[ASM-142]

My troop practices scout skills on every camping trip and is currently incorporating them into every troop meeting.

[OldGreyBear]

I beleive the old cliche "use it or lose it" comes into play here. if you don't use knowledge, you lose it. How many remember much of French I, Algebra or can name the pats of a cell? (unless you use these on a daily basis, very few) The only way to have scouts retain scout skills is to make them part of the Troops Program. Actually, as I typed that I thought, scout skills aren't supposed to be part of the Troops Program, Scout Skills are the Troops program and the other stuff is stuffed in around it.

[WVBeaver05]

One of the best ways for Scouts to keep the skills fresh (IMO) is to teach them to younger Scouts.

YiS

[RWSmith]

Tell, show, do, teach... Tell, show do, teach...

[mom4-2eaglescouts]

If you do a test for the parts of the canoe you are assured that all terms are learned; this does leave more time for the doing; and while doing you demand that scouts refer to parts of the canoe correctly, the scout will be demonstrating that knowledge that they just wrote as part of the test. Using a test is an efficient way to allow reinforcement while doing. So when you direct them to go fore or aft, in effect you "test" again (doesn't seem like a test) and those terms gets reinforced. I think the combination where there is more opportunity for doing is a good idea. Just food for thought.

[mom4-2eaglescouts]

For the life of me, I cannot visualize how one would give a test for rank.

You have the book with all of the skills already demonstrated/tested to/by the individuals who put the initial in the scouts handbook. (Through first class where skills are learned). After all the skills are completed for each rank, you go for the Scoutmaster conference, then the Troop Committee BOR.

When would a test be given? That seems like an additional requirement to me and that is not allowed by BSA.

Senior ranks require merit badges, that's a different topic, but after each rank requirement is met the handbook gets initialed until ready for Scoutmaster Conference and BOR.

[wagionvigil]

You are correct BUT some SM's and Troops feel it is Their Responsibility to retest the scouts to make sure they are truly deserving of the rank advancement. WHICH IS AGAINST BSA POLICY AND THEY SHOULD BE OUT OF SCOUTING

[mhjacobson]

There is a strong difference between scouting and school. In a manner of speaking, every MB counselor 'tests' a scout's knowledge of the subject WHILE evaluating whether or not a scout has obtained sufficient knowledge in order to 'earn' the MB. The major difference is that the 'testing' is accomplished by demonstration, providing documentation, and discussion.

Given the example of canoeing MB: I can esaily know if the scout knows what the parts of the canoe are by asking him to (for example) place his paddle over the left thwart, do a certain stroke, etc. If the scout can do the task from hearing direction using the proper terminology, it tells me more than 'label the parts of the canoe on the picture."

Of course, I need to hear the answers to the requisite first aid questions, etc., as well as see the other skills demonstrated to me.

What raises my ire is when someone in a troop feels necessary to 'test' a scout on something that has been certified by another qualified adult, especially in those cases when the adult who wants to test the scout is not qualified to be a MB counselor for that MB, etc. I have actually heard from some scouts that the adults who are asking the questions did not know the answers to their own questions.

Test scouts -- never!!!

[Craft Lady]

You are correct BUT some SM's and Troops feel it is Their Responsibility to retest the scouts to make sure they are truly deserving of the rank advancement. WHICH IS AGAINST BSA POLICY AND THEY SHOULD BE OUT OF SCOUTING

The most recent reason I heard was that the boys are more prepared for an Eagle board of review, which is stressful to begin with. My son's troop does not "test" the boys, yet they have no problems with the Eagle BOR, so that to me is more proof that it is a convient excuse.

I asked how a friend's son in a different troop was doing and I was floored to hear he "failed his First Class test." WHAT? I pointed out "You do realize they are not supposed to be testing them anyway.

He is just like my son that if you say the word test he frezzes.

Jennifer