Problem with eletronic items on campout

[ICanCanoeCanU]

How about asking the SM if you could plan a campout based on using the radio? Maybe you could mix it into an acitivity and cover the badge for those interested?

[Lynda J]

So basically what you are saying is that since you received your ham operators license that you have the right to violate troop policy.

Sorry you do not. Any more that a boy that gets his first hunting license has the right to violate policy and take his gun to camp. Or that an adult can simply because they are over 21 take alcohol to camp. I know these are far different things but it is the same idea.

You snuck the radio in so knowlingly and willingly violated policy. Nothing less. You have to accept the fact that YOU WERE WRONG.

[Chief J]

I like so many other posters agree. The HAM radio is no different than any other electronic device. If the policy was no electronics, then you were wrong for bringing the radio.

Now in your defense, if you talk to the Scoutmaster, and be open about your desire to bring your radio at your risk and set it up to show the other scouts what you can do, and if the SM approves, I think you have no problem.

I may be short on this, but in my opinion your radio is to you what a gameboy is to another scout.

Just my opinion,
Chief J

[TCC7]

For all of you who believe in the no electronic device policy. First let me say that I am one of you. The amateur radio however belongs in a different class. It could be the lifeline for your troop. Any operator should be allowed and encouraged to bring his HT on trips, however rules can be administered for its operation. A radio check should be done from time to time to check his ability to reach a repeater. The radio only needs to be turned on for that reason and in case of emergency unless the leader wants him to demonstrate its abilities to the other scouts. This will save the battery. The ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League) is made up of a large group of Ham operators that specialize in communications. An emergency transmission is a top priority to all operators and can even be transmitted by keying Morse Code with the mike key if the operator can't speak. Please don't make the mistake of thinking this is a toy. It is a very serious link to the outside world for your troop and at the top of the list for risk management. If a scout or leader is an operator, more than likely the people he talks to on the radio everyday will know that your troop is on an outing and where before you go and will be aware that he could call from his location. I feel a lot more confident that help can be reached if needed when my HT is in my pack. I also would count on your cell phone to be useless. By the way, there is a reason that policemen, firefighters, EMTs, rangers all carry radios. Be Prepared!
KG4YVF
73s

[Lynda J]

The radio really isn't the issue here. It is the fact that he violated troop policy. Had he gone to the SM and ask if he could bring the radio and been up front about it. But he sneaked it in. Knowing that it was against policy.

If I had a boy come to me about bringing his ham radio I would ok it as long as I had authroization from his parents that they were aware he was bringing it. But if he didn't ask me first I would be very upset.

[Mrw]

The HAM radio may indeed be a wonderful thing to have in an emergency, but if the policy is no electronics, than the radio does not belong. If it is allowed for emergency purposes, then it should not be used unless it is an emergency or a demonstration of how it could help.

Just to indulge in your hobby and chat with others is no different than a boy bringing a cell phone and texting his non-scout buddies.

[TCC7]

OK. Heres a scenario. Your troop is on a backpacking trip to a wilderness area. The scoutmaster suddenly shows signs of a heart attack. Because of your troop policy on no electronics devices your only help is to send a couple of scout runners 10 miles to the nearest phone. Also, one of your adult leaders violated the rule and brought a cell phone, however no service is available. Which of these headlines do you want to see in the news? "Boy Scout Troop Not Able To Reach Help, Scoutmaster Dies Of Heart Attack" or "Boy Scout Calls For Help On Ham Radio, Scoutmaster's Life Saved". I prefer the second! Being prepared is what we teach. I don't like telling a boy not to be prepared. As far as breaking the rules go, change the rules for HAM radios. They are your friend.
We spend a lot of time in the NC mountains. I can reach the Mt. Mitchell repeater from most anywhere. Suddenly, people in NC, SC, TN, GA, and VA can here me. My chances for getting help are increased exponentially and help is on the way. My suggestion is that leaders need to become less ignorant of the uses of Ham radios and the people who use them. It's good to know that a lot of you are licensed operators and are prepared. For those who are not. please visit www.arrl.org

KG4YVF

[ICanCanoeCanU]

There seems to be two different elements to this thread.

1. The use of Ham Radios on campouts and in what capacity.
2. The situation pertaining to the original post in this thread.

It's obvious that Ham Radios have an extremely beneficial use when help is needed, and most folks seem to be ok with that. But the story KB1 KOI used which started this thread does not include any emergency. The thread clearly shows that an object was taken on a campout which was not allowed within the troop and the user was very aware of this. This is wrong, when someone makes a choice to disobey the rules. No where did I hear that the scout spoke to anyone about having this rule changed or for asking permission ahead of time.

Good point about the hunting license!

[Lynda J]

I agree with Canoe. This boy knowingly violated a troop policy. Which other troop policies will he decide to violate in the future or which one has he already violated.
I agree that ham radios can be a wonderful emergency tool. When we had the tornado in 2000 our neighbors had one and it was so assuring that in an emergency we could reach help since all the poles were done and we didn't have electricity or phones.
This issue is totally about abiding by troop policies. Which he did not.

[cballman]

ok we all agree that we are looking at TWO different scenes here.

the first was a scout on a campout with a ham radio in his tent just to see if he could reach anybody. nowhere did he say it was on a hike out in the wilderness. for all we know it was at a scout camp.

the second is a scout that has permission to bring his radio on a hike where there is a possiblilty that no communications can be had with cell phones.

now for everbody to look at these and think what is right and wrong? IMHO the second is ok but notice he has permission. the first would also be ok IF and only if the scout has permission to set up his radio and let the others observe. without permission then IMHO the scout was wrong. but if he had permission from the scoutmaster or an asm then it should be ok.

so before we make total judgement then we need to know ALL the facts not just enough to take either side.

[TCC7]

There is no doubt in my mind that the scout broke the no electronic device rule that his troop has in place and he was wrong for doing it. I also have a problem with the scoutmaster's attitude toward this particular type of device. From time to time the rules should be revisited to see if some part of them should be changed.
Here is my solution: Since the PLC is the only legislative body of the troop, this scout should be allowed to plead the case for handheld Ham radios on campouts for emergency or demonstration purposes to the PLC and let the boys appraise the value of it. This in keeping with the boy led troop.
As for how far this scout would go and how many other rules he would break, I don't think that a boy that persues getting an amateur radio licence is the type of boy that would be a trouble maker. It goes against everything Ham operators stand for. We do it to help the community, especially in times of emergency. Here's another great site to learn about ham operators and what they do for the community. www.ares.org

KG4YVF

[Lynda J]

Actually our PLC is the one that set the policy of no electronics on camping trips.

The manor in which this scout took his radio to camp was the same as if he has snuck in a gameboy. It was taken basically as a toy. He did not get permission to take it and it was in no way being used as an emergency piece of equipment. Violating troop rules goes against everything that scouting represents. "A Scout is Trustworthy, and Honest"

[RWSmith]

'No Electronics' goes back to the days of transistor radios being the only thing possible most any Boy Scout (or even Scouter for that matter) could afford take into the wilderness. Of course, today, such is no longer the case. Today, we Scouters find everything from CD Players, to iPods, Gameboys, PSPs, even DVD Players stowed in a cargo pocket. 'No Electronics' means no electronic games or music- or video-producing gadgets!

Otherwise, 'No Electronics' means no digital cameras; no PDAs; no piezo (that's LED) lights... and no GPSes! What the heck; let's just go back to Semaphore flags.

I was told by my son's SM, while on the trail just a couple of years ago, that my Ham radio 'walkie-talkie' was not allowed. No, I didn't know the policy. And yes, I was shocked. About a year later, I was told that my PDA was not allowed, even though I was looking through hundreds of Scoutmaster's minutes. Whatever. What does such a narrow-minded enforcement of the 'No Electronics' policy teach our Scouts? That all electrons are bad?

[OldGreyBear]

What a no electronics policy teaches is that its ok to be capricious and arbitrary and that those with power can make up any silly ol rule they wish

least thats what I think

[wagionvigil]

What I permited and not permit when SM
Allowed.
MP 3 Player with Head Phones
CD Player With Head Phones
GPS Units
Portable Walkie Takies BUT if ever on camp frequency they were removed.
Head Set Radio or radio with ear phones


Not Allowed
Game Boy
Game Cube
Portable DVD Players
COmputors of any type.

Like Everything else you must use your head. I always told the boys if anything is taken I donot want to hear about it.
We had a troop that would bring every electronic game they could find and set them up in their camp site and then run electric from the Shower House to power them. Yeah that is real scouting!

[deweylure]

It sounds like you violated policy. IT seems the SM had a talk with you . Accept it and move on. You do not have a right to violate a troop policy.
I say this not to be mean. I hope you learn now the real world awaits you.
I am an Assistant Scoutmaster. Our troop also has a no electronics ban for the scouts. All the boys know about it and we have not had any problems.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I also have a problem with the scoutmaster's attitude toward this particular type of device.

Not the type of device I'm guessing, but the fact that again, this rule was broken. (the orginal thread commented that this rule got so out of hand, indicating this was not the first breakage.)

From time to time the rules should be revisited to see if some part of them should be changed.

I agree - but not after the fact!

I don't think that a boy that persues getting an amateur radio licence is the type of boy that would be a trouble maker. It goes against everything Ham operators stand for.

I don't think that a boy that chose to join boyscouts would be rule breaker as we are trustworthy?

We do it to help the community, especially in times of emergency

Lots of situations fall into this but they don't all pertain to scouts camping and using a radio at night, in his tent, for fun.

Have we forgot some of the basic reasons for scouts to go camping monthly? Too build self reliance, and to retreat to the basics for inner/team strength? To bond with the finest nature can offer?

If you don't like the rules in your troop, then follow a more diplomatic path and bring up the discussion for a new look at the rules. Maybe a compremise can be made, with electronics allowed with certain bonderies?

[RWSmith]

deweylure,

You seem to have missed the point. It's not an issue for me to get over and move on; I'm not under it. I was simply trying to make a point; a point that OGB picked up on right away, and clearly bears repeating... "....a no electronics policy teaches is that its ok to be capricious and arbitrary and that those with power can make up any silly ol rule they wish." No, meaning 'no exceptions, unless I say so.'

How does bringing an portable Ham Radio, or a Palm Pilot, or a G.P.S. Receiver on the trail set a bad example for the boys? (If a SM doesn't want ADULTS carrying such essential gear on the trail, then it would behoove him to advise said adults prior to getting on the trail. Or better yet, prior to leaving town. Duh.)

Ham Radio has been around nearly as long as Scouting and Geo-caching (with a G.P.S.) is brand new to Scouting; however, and more importantly, both are sanctioned Scouting activities. Telling a Scout (or a Scouter) that Ham radio is not (ever) allowed on the trail is like telling him that he can go down to the waterfront, but never go canoeing. Give me a break. IOW, you should always assume that telling a Scout (or Scouter) who owns or is otherwise "in to" Ham radio, Geo-caching, or PDAs, that he is not allowed to bring electronic toys, such as GameBoys, PSPs, iPods, and the like, does not mean he can't bring electronic gadgets that can be used to track or even teach Scout skills.

An Adult can use a Palm Pilot wisely, effectively, while on the trail to track several Scout's advancement items, to a tee--no mistakes, no errors; to carry scanned copies of every Medical form, in case of emergency, including contact information, and telephone numbers and maps to the nearest ranger station, hospital, etc. And so it goes, similarly, for a portable G.P.S. Receiver, or a portable Ham Radio... tools, which may be seen by others as toys, but, nonetheless, certainly function as tools. Moreover, portable G.P.S. Receivers and Ham Radios can be used to teach Scouts essential skills. Show me where a GameBoy can be used in any sanctioned Scout activity, let alone to pass a requirement for a MB, or an award?

As another users tagline (kinda sorta) says, "If it's not written, it's not policy."

[cballman]

when you spell out as to what an electronic device consist of then yes you can tell me no gameboy, ipod, cd player. but as adults we need to be fair and look at policy over time. I would love to have a ham operator take his radio with us but we dont have any hams in our troop that I know of. now if we want to get downright technical then we could say NO BATTERY operated devices. but then again that says NO FLASHLIGHTS. so IMHO troops could and should use the no electronics on campouts but clearly lay out to scouts and scouters what is allowed. we can debate on and on about this but we dont need to get personal because we are scouts and scouts are FRIENDLY.

[ASM-142]

It should be up to the PLC to make the rules for these trips - before anyone leaves. If the PLC says no electronics then that is the rule for that trip. If someone wants to have some kind of electronic device on a trip where the PLC rules says no they they (including adults) should ask for a waiver.