Wilderness Survival as a required MB

[optimist]

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
Location: PA
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: Wilderness
Survival as a required MB

A couple of years ago a group of scouts in the
Westmoreland-Fayette Council Started a petition to have
Wilderness Survival made a required Merit Badge. I supported
this idea and am interested to see if anyone else might feel
this way. If we gett enough support we could use the Jamboree
to gather signatures for the petitions.
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 12:50 pm Post subject:

in a few years. I am so close to eagle and dont want to have
another MB on my back will get it after eagle though. I will
not do it at summer camp because of what happened to everyone
else who did that merit badge. (lets not go there)
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
A Fighting Irish

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 144

Posted: 24 Jul 2004 02:01 pm Post subject:

Which required merit badge would it replace?

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 02:04 pm Post subject:

would it have to replace a merit badge? or could they just add
it? can they only twelve required?
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Troop 469
A Fighting Irish

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
Location: PA
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 02:05 pm Post subject: re

Thats a good question. I will have to think about that.
Possibibly it could be an alternate with Something.
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 02:11 pm Post subject:

the only thing like it is camping and I dont think thats a
good I dea to get rid of camping. The thing that confuses me
is environmental scince is required and safety is not.
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
Location: PA
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 02:17 pm Post subject: WS

Safety at one time was required
Environmental science took the place of Nature and Soil and
Water Conservation as required.
Cooking Was required at one time
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 24 Jul 2004 04:51 pm Post subject:

good idea just I'm not sure it is going to fly to well with
some people
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 25 Jul 2004 03:17 pm Post subject:

I'd support just adding it, so you have the trio of Camping,
Hiking, and Wilderness Survival. If you're this close to
Eagle, fish, they won't make you get it.
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 25 Jul 2004 05:23 pm Post subject:

I know but still I feel bad for anybody who is like a star
just about to get his life has all the requireds, decided on
his eagle projectand suddenly another required merit badge
pops up! oh yay
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
Location: PA
Posted: 25 Jul 2004 05:37 pm Post subject: REQUIREMENT
CHANGES

They always give you ample time to make the change on a
requirement for rank change. That is you have the time to make
the rank under the old requirements you just may have to work
a little harder
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 10:33 am Post subject:

Wilderness Survival is actually a fun Merit Badge; I took it
as a non-required badge. The only problem was that when I woke
up I had about 30 ticks on my legs...
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Troop 42
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 11:03 am Post subject:

wow!
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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Billvann
Second Class

Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 19
Location: McHenry, IL
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 08:05 am Post subject: Re: WS

wagionvigil wrote:
Safety at one time was required
Environmental science took the place of Nature and Soil
and Water Conservation as required.
Cooking Was required at one time

I would love to see Nature return as a required merit badge
replacing Env. Sci. The change was made during the 70's, a
period of intense environmental awareness. At the time for
that period in history, I think it made good political sense.

What I prefer about nature is that it requires the scout to
get a broad understanding of the life forms in the
environment. Env. Sci. asks scouts to make observations on
life forms, but very few have the prerequisite experience and
tools to make the exercise easy and meaningful. As a couselor,
I try to fill in the blanks. But the badge leaves much to the
skills and experience of the counselor. IMHO, it is quite
possible for scouts to earn this badge by following the
"letter of the law" or requirements, and actually come away
with very little gained from the process.

By requiring Nature first, scouts will have some basic
building blocks to apply towards understanding the concepts of
Env. Sci. when non-living elements, man and viewing the world
as a balanced system are introduced.

Just my $0.02
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Willie Vannerson
ASM Troop 149
McHenry, IL

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Billvann
Second Class

Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 19
Location: McHenry, IL
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 08:10 am Post subject:

Firefish wrote:
would it have to replace a merit badge? or could they
just add it? can they only twelve required?

At one time there were more... and less. As few as 5 and as
many as 16.

Take a look at this page for more information:
http://www.usscouts.org/eagle/eaglehistory.html
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Willie Vannerson
ASM Troop 149
McHenry, IL

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[optimist]

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RWSmith
Counselor

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 06:35 am Post subject:

Up until yesterday, I felt Wilderness Survival should NOT be
required. But, then I seriously asked myself, "Why?" Quite
co-incidentally, my 13-year old son earned the badge last
week. I have reviewed the requirements. There's more to the
'Wilderness Survival' MB than the name implies. So, yes...
Wilderness Survival should be required.

[In the past, I always tended to accept National's
requirements, without question. I guess I'm old enough to have
an opinion without it interfering with my application of the
requirements.]

BTW, when I was a kid, any self-respecting Eagle Scout
candidate would make sure he earned this badge before he went
before an Eagle Board. A requirement? No. An unwritten,
self-imposed (peer-imposed) standard? Definitely.
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 191
Location: PA
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 07:11 am Post subject:

Bob Lets KeeP THE OUTING IN SCOUTING This MB Does That
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 10:32 am Post subject:

I would have to agree... Wilderness Survival MB should be
required. It's what a scout is known for... and of course
helping old ladies across the street. Plus the fact that it
could save your life someday?
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dparker
Scout

Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 3
Location: Atwater, California
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 06:40 pm Post subject: Wilderness
Survival

I think there is a lot of good material in the merit badge and
most of my Scouts seem to earn it and enjoy it. Why not?

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hops_scout
Second Class

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: 09 Aug 2004 08:46 pm Post subject:

I dont have it yet, but hope to get it sooner or later.

At camp this year, there were a lot of people that took it in
my troop. They made their shelter during one of the sessions
and then all they had to do was sleep outside one night. My
friend took his cot out next to the fire that night to
complete the requirement.

The next night, 90 percent of the older boys slept outside on
either cots or in folding chairs around the fire!
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ICanCanoeCanU
Second Class

Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 20

Posted: 10 Aug 2004 06:40 pm Post subject: Wilderness
Survival

Cots and folding chairs around the campfire? Not exactly the
type of shelter I think the badge is referring to? Also, when
my son took this badge at summer camp (age 13), they had to be
100 ft. apart from another scout. He took the badge one year
and succeeded with all requirements except the sleeping
outside in the homemade shelter. Mostly due to the large bear
population and problems in the area, AND this is where the
age/maturity thing comes into play. He just wasn’t ready for
the challenge. During the next summer (now age 14), he on his
own decided he wanted to finish the badge and did! Now that’s
where the rewards of scouting kick in! The next few months he
had the self-confidence and drive to push himself to another
level. He was ready to grow in his outdoor program, at his own
pace with his new comfort level.

Yes, I do think this should be a required merit badge and it
shouldn’t replace one. Just add it to the list. Most of the
badge is an extension of the Camping badge anyway.

Wagionvigil is correct! – keep the OUTING in scouting! This is
where I think too many of the Eagle badges can be taught,
classroom style and the outdoor program is being watered down.
One earning the rank of Eagle should possess certain skills
including the ability to survive in the world of outdoors. See
my post on the “age of Eagle” under “campfire” for the rest of
my grumbles related to this topic.

As for scouts in progress to Eagle, yes time is always grand
fathered into the mix when a new requirement is implemented.
Although unless the scout is ranked at Life, wouldn’t they
have time to throw another one in, especially since so many
scouts earning the Eagle Rank seem to be young?

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hops_scout
Second Class

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: 10 Aug 2004 09:23 pm Post subject:

They werent required to sleep in a shelter apparently, they
just had to sleep outside

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ICanCanoeCanU
Second Class

Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 20

Posted: 11 Aug 2004 05:42 am Post subject: Wilderness
Survival

Actually requirements 8 & 9 read:

8. Show that you can find and improvise a natural shelter
minimizing the damage to the environment.

9. Spend a night in your shelter.

When a scout takes this badge at our local summer camps, this
is what they are required to do.

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 06:11 am Post subject:

I would have to agree with Canoe...our Scouts at summer camp
who take the MB are required to build a shelter and then sleep
in it...

It's not too hard to survive sleeping on a cot by a fire...
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hops_scout
Second Class

Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

Posted: 11 Aug 2004 06:50 am Post subject:

I'm not disagreeing with you guys. I'm just telling you what
their counselor told them.
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 07:54 am Post subject:

Sounds like their counselor needs to have a better
understanding of the requirements and the definition of
"Wilderness Survival"....

Maybe the were earning the abridged version?
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[Willt]

I always thought it would be a good idea if they had a group of 'camp skill' merit badges be required, and the scout would have to do one for eagle rank. I'd be talking about wilderness survival, cooking, backpacking, pioneering, orienteering, and any other ideas you might have. They could just add this to the list without replacing anything without very much trouble, because most scouts first class or above already have at least one of them.

The pluses to this system would be that it wouldn't cause very much inconvenience to scouts, you would be elevating a group of merit badges that don't get the recognition they deserve to a higher status, and an Eagle scout really should have at the very least one of these skills. Don't see many cons on this, other than the added inconvenience. If you see any bad points, please go ahead and reply.

By the way, I posted this the other day and it didn't seem to work, so I'd like to apologize if two versions of this suddenly pop up.

Will Treece
BSA Far East Council Troop 51

[Guneukitschik]

Interesting concept!

I wonder how many Eagle Scouts already earn one or more of the merit badges you listed without them being on the "required" list?

[wagionvigil]

I have had 3 new eagles this summer all have Wilderness Survival and Orienteering MB. These are MB's that the Boys push on each other.

[Rick Tyler]

Let's play the game this way: "I think Wilderness Survival should be an Eagle required merit badge, and Camping should be removed from the list."

Same thing with a new merit badge suggestion: "I think Stalking should be a new MB, so I recommend eliminating Fishing to make room for it."

The folks that decide what is a worthwhile MB topic have to make these tradeoffs, as do the folks that decide what should be Eagle required. I would like to see us say what we are willing to give up to get what we want.

I like the idea of an advanced scout skills requirement for Eagle (Wilderness Survival, Orienteering, Cooking -- which used to be Eagle required, Backpacking, Climbing, Pioneering, etc.), but I couldn't pick anything of the current list that shouldn't be Eagle required.

[Willt]

I don't see why a merit badge would HAVE to be taken off the list in this scenario, especially when there's such a wide range of 'camp skill' merit badges to choose from. As far as I know, there is no set number of Eagle required badges, I'm pretty sure it has varied in the past.

The point of the "big group of camp skill badges where the scout only needs one to get to Eagle" idea that I suggested was not to create extra work for the scout, as there you can probably count the number of Eagles who don't have one of those badges on one hand- and if they don't, they definitely should. The point of it would be to show the scouts that these aren't just skills you learn about up till First class and then push them to the back of your mind- these are skills that are important enough that you need to acquire one to acheive Scouting's highest rank.

[PaulSWolf]

The number of required badges has varied over the years, but nt substantially. I've got a fairly complete history of the required badges posted on the USSSP at http://usscouts.org/usscouts/eagle/EagleHistory.html Take a good look at the history and how the list has varied and matured over the past 94 years. It's pretty interesting and closely matches the history of the USA over the same period.

In reiewing the list, note that:

(1) The total number of merit badges which must have been earned for the Eagle Scout rank, has always been 21, except from 1972-1979, when 24 were needed.

(2) The number of specifically required MBs has varied from 5, (1912-1915) to 16 (1952-1965) including MBs chosen from specific groups as "required". At all other times, the number of required badges has always been between 10 and 13

(3) From 1965-1994, the number of specifically required MBs was 11, except for the period of 1972-1979 when CAMPING was removed from the list and only 10 were required (note that that period was also when the total changed to 24). From 1979 to 1994, NO changes in the required list were made at all. Since 1994 (when Family Life became required), the number of specifically required MBs has been 12.

Thus, the requirement has always been earn a specific number, (usually 21), and of those earn a specific number of specific badges (usually between 11 and ) and a specific number (usually 8-10) of badges of the Scout's choice, depending on his skills, interests, and desires.

Long research seems to indicate that that ratio has proven effective over the long term.

BTW, the 1972-1979 period was the period most long time Scouts and Scouters deem the "worst" period in BSA's history, when outdoor skills were diminished in emphasis in favor of "urban" skills.

[Guneukitschik]

I don't think the problem is adding just one or two merit badges....

Overtime...these additional merit badges could combine to make quite a list if none were ever removed.

Your comparison/trade off scenerio is probably more likely to happen when National wants to add several new MB's?


I see more of a problem with MB's not being updated regularly!

Scouting must change with the times if it wishes to thrive!

[Scouting179]

There have been numerous changes in the required list over the years. I uploaded an article from Scouting magazine detailing this to my troop's website at http://members.cox.net/scouting179/Eagle%20History.htm

Many people push their favorites MBs (required and non-required). There's no way National can please them all and keep the MB list for Eagle to a manageable number.

[schneizenator]

I agree with the idea as Wilderness Survival as being a required merit badge. I know back in the 60s Citizenship in teh World, Nation, and Community were lumped together. Maybe we could return to that and reinstate Wilderness Survival (a skill that could save your life) and cooking (what is scouting all about? Hot food on a cold campout!)

[Rick Tyler]

I agree with the idea as Wilderness Survival as being a required merit badge. I know back in the 60s Citizenship in teh World, Nation, and Community were lumped together. Maybe we could return to that and reinstate Wilderness Survival (a skill that could save your life) and cooking (what is scouting all about? Hot food on a cold campout!)

My Boy Scout Handbook, the 1966 printing of the Seventh Edition, lists both Citizenship in the Community and Citizenship in the Nation as Eagle required. Citizenship in the World was not yet on the list, but Nature and Safety were. Wilderness Survival did not even exist in 1966.

I agree that Cooking should be reinstated. You can use it to replace Family Life.

[diamondbackAPL]

I think wilderness survival should be required. I also like the idea of "camp skills". I am going to earn wilderness survival by the summer, and pretty much every eagle scout already has it, so why shouldn't it be required?

P.S. i have already earned environmental science, so if nature replaced it as a required, would I have to earn both?

[diamondbackAPL]

I understand that when a new badge becomes eagle required, another badge must be taken out of the required list to keep it manageable, but think about it, there's no already eagle required badge that doesn't deserve to be there.

Baden-Powell called the eagle scout the all-around perfect scout, and since the eagle scouts are the great men of tomorrow, and since building a strong family is what most men would do sometime in their life, I don't think family life should be taken out, as some of you suggest.

apply the same thought to the other eagle badges, and you'll see that none should be taken out.

[Mick Scouter]

Good point diamondbackAPL. I need to think about this for a little while. I have not looked at the all around developement. That is something that I have impressed on my boys. You need to be well developed in many aspects of life.