Board of Review

[Mrw]

Our troop has had elections maybe three times since we crossed over from Webelos and my older son is now 19 and a sophomore in college.

Only one boy elected made his Ordeal and I don't think he ever went back.

They have changed the dates for Ordeal weekends to now be less likely to coincide with high school football and graduations, which is a large part of the reason no one else ever went. My older one would have loved to participate, but couldn't since he was in band at school.

I don't think our boys actually have a very good idea of what the OA is, although we have an ASM or two that are at least somewhat active. My younger son was elected in the spring and had conflicts with all three Ordeal weekends. He tells me he only wanted the sash anyways. I intend to make him go in April regardless, as it should be a good character building experience.

I am not about to say it is like this all over, but my experience has been that unless we call and schedule a presentation and elections with the OA lodge in our council, we don't seem to exist. They will not get active participation with the poor leadership they have displayed.

[Scoutmom 231]

Our troop is similar to yours, Mrw, we've had the presentation and elections, but no follow through and no real strong interest. Our boys have had limited exposure to the OA, and what they have had has been negative.

I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that our troop is weak. Despite no current memebers in the OA, we are very strong. As a group we work together to be sure that every scout is able to reach his goals as well as his fullest potential.

[wagionvigil]

Weak Lodge! Not Troop But the troop leadership plays into this equation.

[Scouting179]

To start off I am not an OA member. I keep getting elected but I can not fulfill the requirements of the Ordeal because of my work schedule. ...

Just curious here...You keep getting elected but can't do your Ordeal because of work committents...Do you work most weekends? Most Lodges have Ordeals on weekends and have 2-3 Ordeals a year.

[Mrw]

My older son also was elected twice and could not make any of 6 Ordeal weekends.

One because of mandatory training time for a job and five because of school activities. He was in band and Show Choir and could not miss the shows and competitions. Then there was the band needing to play for Graduation too.

For the fall football games with marching band, he was told if he couldn't get to the camp by 6 PM on Friday, he couldn't do his Ordeal. The game doesn't even start until 7:30. Missing marching band would lower his grade and was not an option.

[Scouting179]

My older son also was elected twice and could not make any of 6 Ordeal weekends.

One because of mandatory training time for a job and five because of school activities. He was in band and Show Choir and could not miss the shows and competitions. Then there was the band needing to play for Graduation too.

For the fall football games with marching band, he was told if he couldn't get to the camp by 6 PM on Friday, he couldn't do his Ordeal. The game doesn't even start until 7:30. Missing marching band would lower his grade and was not an option.

These conflicts come up all the time. Sometimes there is a choice, which life is full of and sometimes no real choice is available. It often comes down to the fact that activities like football, band, etc are willing to kick people off their team (or whatever) because there's usually someone waiting to take that spot on the team or hold grades over their heads and Scouting can't (won't?) because Scouting wants as many people involved as possible.

I myself went through this went my son was (still is SPL) playing JV football and the meetings were on game nights. Fortunately, the SM worked with him and he had a strong ASPL and it worked out pretty good.

Doesn't your lodge hold an Ordeal in the summer?

[ASM-142]

To start off I am not an OA member. I keep getting elected but I can not fulfill the requirements of the Ordeal because of my work schedule. ...

Just curious here...You keep getting elected but can't do your Ordeal because of work committents...Do you work most weekends? Most Lodges have Ordeals on weekends and have 2-3 Ordeals a year.

I do a lot of business travel on weekends. The OA lodge here has 2 Ordeals a year and through bad luck that is when I was travelling.

[Mrw]

Doesn't your lodge hold an Ordeal in the summer?

At the time, there was one the first weekend of June which conflicted with our high school's graduation and one the last weekend of August that conflicted with football/band.

They have moved them now, because of these types of conflicts, but Martin is 19 and away at college now, so it is too late. Yes, adults can be elected, but his involvement is pretty minimal these days and he would not be able to get this in too.

[wagionvigil]

We have 4 weekend a Year. August,October.April and June We have Ordeals,Brotherhood and if needed Vigil Ceremonies each weekend. You have 1 year from Calling out to take your Ordeal.
Many Lodges offer Ordeals at summer camp immediately after you are called out.
You must take your Ordeal at your Home lopdge so those that do not support their Councils camp cannot do this if offered.

[cballman]

Question Wagion you say they have 1 year after being called out to get ordeal? is that a full year from summer camp or is that from Jan-Dec. year?

[wagionvigil]

You are not official until you are called out. In our Lodge it is done at Camp so it is 1 year from when you are in camp. Now ther are times wehave had to call out at an actual Ordeal. Our Lodge still taps so on Visitor we have the OA tap out.

[WVBeaver05]

MisterChris -- I'm certainly not here to run anyone off - and further wouldn't want to run anyone off from our local Council (unless they were hurting the Scouts). From what I see here, no one else is either.

What I would want to do is share information to improve Scouting!! Part of that includes getting a wide range of opinions. Some express themselves in a stronger manner than others, but it seems like most (if not all) really want to improve the program. Now, that doesn't mean that we all agree, or that we ever will.

My position would be that if someone does something "wrong", finds out about it and corrects it - GREAT. I am strong supporter of the Boy Scout Training courses, and recommend them to give volunteers information on the "Boy Scout ways".

As to some of the specifics that you "confessed" to. There are BSA documents that describe what a BOR should consist of. I know that there are wide variations on how they are done and while I agree with some of the reasons -- we do have guidelines. Sort of like work - they have some rules that the company has that I don't agree with, but they expect that I follow them.

Even more specifically on the POR requirement - I consider that to be the SM job. I have had this discussion recently with a Scout. When they have a POR, I expect them to fullfill it. If they don't, I discuss it with them to help them correct the deficency. If the don't, then they are removed from the position and I will have a serious discussion with them before the next election. If the SM/SPL doesn't discuss performance with them, then whether they do anything or not, the way I read the requirement, they have met it. That is why I, as a SM, monitor POR performance carefully. Just the way I do it on this item.

As long as you are trying to help the boys, and following the Oath and Law you should be going in the right direction. I applaud you for giving back to Scouting.

YiS

[WVBeaver05]

Hey MisterChris! Where did your post go?

Looks like it disappeared while I was responding. Kind of makes mine not make much sense.

[FrankJ]

My opinion on POR for rank requirement. The requirement is to have one not to do it well. Like WVBeaver05 said: it is up to troop managment (SPL, SM etc to monitor & if a scout is not performing provide council & remove him if need be. But once the time is complete for rank; that requirement is met. You cannot go back & say the performance was not good enough. POR is for learning & growth.

[MisterChris]

Hey MisterChris! Where did your post go?

Looks like it disappeared while I was responding. Kind of makes mine not make much sense.

Sorry - my wife talked me into deleting that rather lengthy rant and confession. It started with an ugly rant and went on to expose some stuff our troop did that was non-regs. (Most of those have been addressed thru the years.).

The gist of it, for the lay reader following this thread, is that:
1) I've been AdvChair for about 10 years, Leader for 15. Got trained in Ldrship but never really read the regs on Advancement pertaining to BOR.
2) I've been administering it as a review test to verify scouts really passed the reqs they say they have (yes they were already signed off).

3) I rarely failed anyone on a BOR, but have in the past based on a scout not knowing knots, or not in uniform. They always passed the following month. - Our CC talked me into making knowledge of the first class knots mandatory for passage of Life BOR (earlier ranks got more leeway)

4) Our troop did mulotiple things differntly, added some reqs (35 trees, tree board, knot board) to make Eagle. Through the years parents have challenged these and we've pitched them.

5) I don't really see the point or teeth of a BOR if it's not to validate a boy has passed the reqs. I've sat in on Eagle BORs where knots, map symbols, 5 signs of a heart attack, 3 classes of burns, etc. were asked of a scout. I guess the BOR is to verify a scout is mature. But that is so nebulous it becomes a 'eye of the beholder' thing, open to attack and an overturn.

Anyway, there. That's a lot shorter, more to the point, and less offensive.

[MisterChris]

My opinion on POR for rank requirement. The requirement is to have one not to do it well. Like WVBeaver05 said: it is up to troop managment (SPL, SM etc to monitor & if a scout is not performing provide council & remove him if need be. But once the time is complete for rank; that requirement is met. You cannot go back & say the performance was not good enough. POR is for learning & growth.

I agree with this. It's not fair to the scout to judge his performance once his time is done. And the SM and TLC has the right to vote to remove one who isn't performing. (We call that the 'green bar' - Only once since I've been in the troop has the Green Bar removed a scout from a leadership position - Taking another scout's stuff, I think the infraction was. A Scout is Trustworthy.

[FrankJ]

I can see why a board of of review can seem like a rubber stamp for advancement. In a properly functioning troop the scout should be ready and rarely fail one. If the sole purpose was advancement I would agree. Here is the value I see.

For the troop: It lets the commitee know how the troop is doing. It is a excellent way of finding out what is working and what needs improvement. If a scout seems weak in a area. The troop training methods need might need improvement.

For the Scout. It teach how to deal with adults. Almost as good as Powder Milk Biscuits. Teaches communication skills such as how to present a point of view in a formal way. Provides a review of were he as been & guidance on how to get to the next level. Occasionally the scout is just not ready to advance. The BOR should concrete written guidance on what the scout needs to work on.


Realize that why an eagle scout is just about universally respected achievement is not because of what a scout has done, but by what he does through life. I think a big part of that is the presentation skills learned by doing things like the BOR

[Double Eagle]

Back to the discussion about scoutmasters or parents attending an Eagle board of review. In the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" book it states on page 32:

"The candidate's unit leader introduces him to the members of the board of review. The unit leader may remain in the room, but does not participate in the board of review. The unit leader may be called on to clarify a point in question. In no case should a relative or guardian of a candidate attend the review, even as a unit leader"


So a scoutmaster may attend and observe unless he/she is related to the Eagle candidate. Parents may not attend.

[USforester]

BOR are designed to allow other adult leaders of the committee and possible available parents that are invited to get to know the scouts better, discuss how things are going with them in the Troop, school and life. To insure that the Troop is providing them a meaningful expericence and ask for suggestions for how the Troop can improve. In no case should a parent sit in on his own scouts BOR!

ALL TESTING is conducted by scouts in preparing a scout for the SM conference, and the SM conference. The SM during the conference has the right and responsibility to test a scout as to their retention of the skills learned, especially during the first three ranks. After first class the SM would spend more time during the SM conference probing about leadership and providing guidance as to how a scout could improve either on points the SM as observed or questions the scout may ask.

NO TESTING should occur during a BOR, period. If the SM passes the scout allowing them to advance to a BOR then the testing for that rank is done!

[FrankJ]

Uforester: First of all welcome to the group. Second of all you say

ALL TESTING is conducted by scouts in preparing a scout for the SM conference, and the SM conference. The SM during the conference has the right and responsibility to test a scout as to their retention of the skills learned, especially during the first three ranks.

I am not sure if I agree with this. If the requirement says "demonstrate" & the scout has done this, signed off. The requirement is met. This is my understanding of written national policy. Not being able to do it a week later in the SM conference doesn't change that. If during the scout master conference you think a scout is weak in a certain area you can & should encourage the scout to work on his skills. One of the reasons I like older scouts teaching advancement is that it reinforces the teacher's skills.

Advancement, although important, should be a secondary goal of the program. Things done just to meet an advancement requirement will done to a mimimun and poorly retained.