Who should choose leadership positions in the troop?

[West]

I agree with both of you. Though I never was a Den Cheif I was a troop guide. The two possitions act as the teachers of the younger scouts whether it be in cub scouts or in boy scouts. It's nothing like SPL which I also served just last year from fall to spring. They are completely different and I couldn't compare them in likeness if I had too.

As far as being a Den Cheif and a PL I don't see any problem with that. I just think if there is a poisition inside the troop that someone else can fill then they should get the experience, but if your son was the only one qualified than more power to him so to speak lol

Well like I said, have you ever heard a Pack compain that they had to many Den Chiefs? This is one position that any boy who is responsible can do, because you really can have any many Den Chiefs as you have boys willing to do the job (at least in my experiance, which as an adult isn't even quite 8 years yet.)

[West]

Actually if you look at the set-up of a troop the troop guide doesn't report to the SPL in any way but rather directly to an ASM

Everything that I have ever read and been taught is that all boy report to the SPL including the Troop Guide.

Look in the JLT book. He's responsible to the SPL as a member of the troop, however in his TG duties he reports to a ASM. Much like a JASMs duties don't fall under the SPLs responsibility, yet as a youth member takes direction in other areas from the SPL. In these cases the boys and the jobs are not the same.

[teepeeayy]

My thought is if he likes it, he should keep doing it. If he becomes SPL and still wants to help out the Cub Scouts I don't think anyone should say no. I've yet to see a Cub Pack with the problem of to many Den Chiefs. I was one from the time I was 12 until I was 17. During that time I was also a PL, APL, ASPL, and SPL. I still consider Den Chief (and troop guide) to be the most important position I ever held. The Den Chiefing did not interfere with the Troop Duties, as they were on seperate nights and I was willing to put in the time to prepare for both.

West: good thoughts. Another stunning example of the benefits of the forum. Thanks.

[commish3]

I think perhaps the confusion is created by the phrase "reports to" Which as far as I can tell does not appear in any junior leader job description.

It gives the impression that the Senior Patrol Leader is the Patrol Leader's boss, which really is not how the patrol method works.

The line that describes it best is in the Patrol Leaders Handbook. On page 8 it asks the question "what is expected of me". The third bullet in the second column says "work with others in the troop to make the troop go".

Good advice for any junior leader or adult leader for that matter. Scouting is not about who is in charge, it is about learning to work as a team, a family, a community, to get the job done.

It is not about who reports to who, but about teaching scouts the importance of communication and cooperation to reach a goal.

Each position or responsibility has its own goals and purpose, working to do his part to help the troop as a whole move forward. The Senior Patrol Leader acts as ringmaster making sure all the parts are moving in the right direction. Giving recognition to those who earn it and counseling to those who need it. It is not about who you report to but about who is the person you can turn to for help.

[ASM-142]

The Senior Patrol Leader acts as ringmaster

Being the ringmaster makes him is charge. A troop (or any organization) can not function effectively is there is not one person at the top.

[commish3]

I would offer a different way to view it. The ringmaster doesn't tell the lion tamer what to do, or tell the trapeze artist what tricks to perform. He cordinates the individual acts into a single show.

The SPL is not in charge of the patrols, the patrol leaders are responsible for how their patrols perform. The SPL coordinates the efforts of the patrols when they are gathered together as a troop. He is there to help communicate and coordinate. Not to run the patrols.

Teaching the scouts that a leader is the servant of others and not the Big Dog in charge will give them a more relaxed and helpful approach than as the "Boss".

[BM_Crawford]

Wow, what a wonderful analogy. I think that would be really helpful for anyone who misunderstands the role of spl. Do you mind if I use it in the future?

And about the whole in charge thing I keep hearing about from different people. The famous quote "There's no I in team." A team has a leader who directs (like Commish stated) but that doesnt make him the final decision maker. If you read close enough its the PLC Body that makes the decsion. If the SPL doesnt agree with something and everyone else wants to do it then thats just too bad for the SPL.

[hacimsaalk]

in our troop, the boys choose the SPL ( even though most of the time it is a popularity contest) then the new spl chooses the ASPL

[commish3]

Micah,
Do not worry that your elections are popularity contests. ALL elections are popularity contests. Have you ever heard of anyone being elected because they were the person nobody liked?

[t305spl]

These are not uncommon to be picked for popularity. Think not only are Scout Elections popularity contests but so are School Elections and Political Office Elections. These are not uncommon actually they should be expected.

[BM_Crawford]

That's true. One thing the leaders in my troop (including myself) tell the boys before elections is to vote for who they think will do the best job and not who they just like the most. Whether that helps or not I dont know. We don't try to influence the election in any way. We just try to get the scouts to vote for who they think is the best canidate instead of who gave them a lollypop at lunch the other day lol.

I think once a boy does a good job as SPL he will often be voted in later by the scouts as to how good he did before and not just because they like them.

I could be completely wrong, thats just a few things we do and some ideas I've gathered.

[hacimsaalk]

Micah,
Do not worry that your elections are popularity contests. ALL elections are popularity contests. Have you ever heard of anyone being elected because they were the person nobody liked?

no

[Elangomat]

One thing the leaders in my troop (including myself) tell the boys before elections is to vote for who they think will do the best job and not who they just like the most.

When ever I do an election for the OA that's exactly what I tell them. Again, in an agree, I don't know whether or not it works. But I am sure that I say it a good 3 times. Not in a row of course!

[Warwickfishman]

We have a decent size Troop (55 Scouts) and we do it this way...

the ASPL from the time we held that last election takes the SPL spot. (And ASPL & SPL must be Life) ALL other possitions are voted on by the Scouts. and overseen by the Leaders and Committee...

[commish3]

While I understand that that may "work" for the unit you are in wrawickfishman there is one little problem...that is not how the scouting program is designed to function.

It is not what is taught to the scouts in their training programs, its not what is taught to the leaders, it is not what is written in ANY of the BSA resources on troop leadership. It is not the program that is explained to the scouts in the Boy Scout Handbook, the patrol leader or senior patrol leader handbooks, or in the scoutmaster handbook... or the committee handbook.

So other than the fact that the adults in your troop "like it", how do they defend it as a method of scouting when it isn't?

The BSA program is designed to teach the scouts how to make ethical choices. As a tool to apply and practice that the BSA program says that the SPL and the PL are the ONLY elected offices and that those two positions choose their respective cabinets, and no one else, with the one exception of the JASM, which requires the SM approval.

[joat]

Commish -
Sounds good to me