Eagle merit badges required for rank ???

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Use Troopmaster for and it will take care of all this for you -- and it does it correctly.

Our troop doesn't think that is the correct way? Thanks anyways!

[wagionvigil]

This is not a hard thing to understand. In it simplest form the following is true.

A First scout earns all 12 required MB What rank is he?
Answer First Class. You must have the non required, the time in office and service and the service projects.

SO only 4 required count for Star
3 Required Count towards life
and the last 5 count toward Eagle for the total of 12.
You canot take a MB over you cannot uise the optional MB once you use one. They can countfor Non required though. Like Lifesaving to eagle Emerg Prepardness to non required.

[PaulSWolf]

This is not a hard thing to understand. In it simplest form the following is true.

A First scout earns all 12 required MB What rank is he?
Answer First Class. You must have the non required, the time in office and service and the service projects.

SO only 4 required count for Star
3 Required Count towards life
and the last 5 count toward Eagle for the total of 12.
You canot take a MB over you cannot uise the optional MB once you use one. They can count for Non required though. Like Lifesaving to eagle Emerg Prepardness to non required.

A First Class Scout with 12 Eagle required MB's (and no others) AND the time in grade and other requirements, would be eligible for Star, and then for Life, without earning any more merit badges. He has all the badges stipulated for those ranks (i.e. at least 6 for Star and at least 11 for Life)

He would then need to earn ANY 9 more merit badges (including the other 3 Eagle required / optional badges)

Keep in mind that ANY Scout, regardless of rank, may earn ANY merit badge at ANY time.

A number of dedictated and knowledgable Scouters, including the developers of Troopmaster, and the other software programs have verified the procedure with BSA's National Advancement Committee, and have gotten confirmation that they are correct in their interpretation.

ICanCanoeCanU: Have you or the other members of your Troop leadership ASKED BSA HQ if your interpretation is correct? Try calling Terry Lawson, (National Director of Boy Scout Advancement), and ask him if you are right, and let us know his response.

[wagionvigil]

You are leaving out the Non required stipulation for each rank!

[ASM-142]

A scout can not 'eagle' required MBs for the non-required for lower ranks.

[PaulSWolf]

ANY merit badge can be used for the "optional" badge, INCLUDING Eagle required badges.

A Scout with First Aid, Swimming, Cycling, Hiking, Emergency Preparedness, and Lifesaving (and no others) has met STAR Requirement 3:

3. Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle.*

The fact that all 6 merit badges are from the Eagle list does NOT change the fact that he has 6 merit badges. And the fact that he has Swimming AND Cycling AND Hiking, and both Emergency Preparedness AND Lifesaving does not matter either, since the footnote to the requirement specifically says:

* A Scout may choose any of the 15 required merit badges in the 12 categories to fulfill requirement 3.

If that same Scout then earns Citizenship in the Nation, Citizenship in the Coimmunity, Citizenship in the World, Communications, and Family Life (and no others) has met LIFE Requirement 3:

3. Earn 5 more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any 3 more from the required list for Eagle.

The fact that all 11 merit badges are from the Eagle list does NOT change the fact that he has 11 merit badges.

And EVEN if he had earned all 11 BEFORE he had his STAR Board of Review, it wouldn't change the fact that he has all that is required at this point.

Then, for Eagle, he must earn Personal Fitness, Personal Management, Environmental Science, and Camping, plus ANY 6 other merit badges, to get to the total of 21, to meet EAGLE requirement 3:

3. Earn a total of 21 merit badges (10 more than you already have), including the following:
1. First Aid
2. Citizenship in the Community
3. Citizenship in the Nation
4. Citizenship in the World
5. Communications
6. Personal Fitness
7. Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving
8. Environmental Science
9. Personal Management
10. Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling
11. Camping, and
12. Family Life *
* You must choose only one merit badge listed in items (g) and (j). If you have earned more than one of the badges listed in items (g) and (j), choose one and list the remaining badges to make your total of 21.

The requirements for Egle Palms have a footnote that says:

*Merit Badges earned any time since becoming a Boy Scout may be used to meet this requirement.

Although that footnote is only specfically listed under the Eagle Palms, logic says that it would equally apply to the other rans, as well.

[wagionvigil]

I must disagree. You are still leaving out the Non Required in the Requirement.

[ASM-142]

A scout can not 'eagle' required MBs for the non-required for lower ranks.

Sorry this post should of stated:

A scout can USE 'eagle' required MBs for the non-required for lower ranks.

[ASM-142]

The requirement for Star is:

Earn six merit badges, including any four from the required list for Eagle.
Name of Merit Badge
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________
________________________________

There is no requirement for MB 5 and 6 that state they can not be an Eagle MB

[vpalango]

Please go back and re-read this thread to see where I previously stood, as I seem to be one of the few that records ERB differently than most of you. I said I would bring this up to our committe and the SPL and here's what has been decided. Based on comments stated in this thread by others and re-reading the way the reguirements read - our troop has decided to stay with the way we record badges.

Based on several key points:

1.The requirement says

Earn five more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any three more from the required list for Eagle.

2.This is similar to the requirement for Community Service Work, which is an ongoing requirement needed to earn for each advancement. A scout cannot do all the service work when a Tenderfoot and space the time out for each rank advancement, the time worked needs to be during each rank for the next advancement.

3. The fact that to use 6 ERB's to earn Star could mean that badges are then relocated later to Life and new badges entered into the spaces for Star. This is like playing around with the system.

Although this decision by our troop my not seem like the way most of you do your recording, I feel comfortable that I brought this to the attention of the other adults, committe and SPL to have a group decision.

OK... Taking this point by point....

1.The requirement says... Earn five more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any three more from the required list for Eagle.

You are quite correct here, that's what the requirement says.... However, be carefull, you're not allowed to add additional requirements to advancement either.

2.This is similar to the requirement for Community Service Work, which is an ongoing requirement needed to earn for each advancement. A scout cannot do all the service work when a Tenderfoot and space the time out for each rank advancement, the time worked needs to be during each rank for the next advancement.

You aren't correct here. Here's the requirements from Star, Life & Eagle:

Star:
3. Earn 6 merit badges, including any 4 from the required list for Eagle
4. While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects...
5. While a First Class Scout, serve actively for 4 months...
Life:
3. Earn 5 more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any 3 more from the required list for eagle.
4. While a Star Scout, take part in service projects...
5. While a Star Scout, serve actively for 6 months...
Eagle:
3. Earn a total of 21 merit badges, including...
4. While a Life Scout, serve actively for 6 months...
5. While a Life Scout (eagle project)....

The key here is the MBs are not simliar to the community service requirement. The community service requirement explicitly states that the scout must do this while in rank, the MB requirement does not.

3. The fact that to use 6 ERB's to earn Star could mean that badges are then relocated later to Life and new badges entered into the spaces for Star. This is like playing around with the system.

But you're not "re-locating" badges to life.... Again, you can't add new requirements. The key here is, that at each level, the total number of badges that must have been earned, and the number of those which must be Eagle Required are specified. It does not put any requirement or injunction that Eagle MBs can't count against the total at each rank level. If you do that, you are adding a requirement for advancement.

This is fairly simple, troop master does implement the advancement requirements correctly. You and your troop committee actually do not have the right to modify those requirements in any way. If you start requiring boys to earn additional merit badges in each rank (by not counting Eagle Required against the total in each level), or restricting when they can earn any individual Eagle Required MB, you are doing just that. This is not within the authority of your committee as I understand it.

Yours In Scouting,

[PaulSWolf]

I must disagree. You are still leaving out the Non Required in the Requirement.

Where in

Earn five more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any three more from the required list for Eagle.

does it say that any of them MUST be "non-required"? Or, as ASM142 quoted:

The requirement for Star is:

Earn six merit badges, including any four from the required list for Eagle.
Name of Merit Badge
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________ (required for Eagle)
________________________________
________________________________

where on those last 2 lines does it say "You must use a merit badge that is NOT required for Eagle."?

And when you get to Eagle, it SPECIFICALLY says

If you have earned more than one of the badges listed in items (g) and (j), choose one and list the remaining badges to make your total of 21.

i.e., as I said earlier, if you have earned BOTH Lifesaving AND Emergency Preparedness, use ONE of them for item (g) - the seventh place in the list of 21 mrit badges on the application, AND THE OTHER as one of the 9 optional badges (positions 13-21). If you can use them here, why not for Star & Life?

As I said earlier, have you written or talked to Terry Lawson or John Dalrymple (his predecessor) about this? I have, and my interpretation was confirmed as correct.

[wagionvigil]

The Optional required can definitely be used as your non required. I do not disagree with that.
On those last two lines where dos it say they can be required?

[ASM-142]

The Optional required can definitely be used as your non required. I do not disagree with that.
On those last two lines where dos it say they can be required?

It does not state the these two MB can be from the Eagle required list specifically. However, it also does not specifically say that they can not be from the Eagle required list. Therefore, being that we can make our own rules, we must accept any MB for these two lines.

[vpalango]

It does not state the these two MB can be from the Eagle required list specifically. However, it also does not specifically say that they can not be from the Eagle required list. Therefore, being that we can make our own rules, we must accept any MB for these two lines.

The problem is here (I think) that people are getting the lines (a convenience) in the scout book used for recording things, vs. the actual requirement.

The requirement is not the lines in the scout handbook where you can record the MBs, it's the requirement as written.....

Star:
3. Earn 6 merit badges, including any 4 from the required list for Eagle
Life:
3. Earn 5 more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any 3 more from the required list for eagle.
Eagle:
3. Earn a total of 21 merit badges, including...

We're not dealing with making up one's own rules. The requirement is actually quite straightforward. At each rank, you need a total number of Merit Badges, and of that number a certain number must be from the Ealge Required List. Adding anything else is adding a requirement, and that is not up to us as unit leaders.

YIS,

[ASM-142]

Star:
3. Earn 6 merit badges, including any 4 from the required list for Eagle

As stated this is the written requirement for Star. Who is to say the the two remaining MBs that are required after the 4 Eagle required MBs are earned can not be other Eagle required MBs.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

So lets look at this another way and see what happens.

Lets say a brand new scout working on his Tenderfoot, earns all ERB's and no other non required badges which means he has earned all 15 badges. If we list 6 for Star, and then enter 5 more for Life and the remaining 4 towards Eagle, this scout still has an empty space on his advancement sheet for a required Eagle badge. But there aren't anymore EB's to take so are you saying that it's ok for the scout to have earned all these badges before earning the Tenderfoot rank and they will only have to meet all other requirements towards each rank and earn 6 more non required badges and they will have met all requirements needed for Eagle? OR do you now move 1 ER badge from the previous ranks to the slot for Eagle? If this is so, then a new badge will be listed for the previous rank and to me, this is playing with the system.

Also - I don't appreciate the suggestions that I should be careful about the way I'm recording this. Suggesting that I am adding to the requirements. As I stated, I brought this issue up to the SPL and committee and it was unanimous to continue the way we are. I resent this suggestion as a concerned volunteer, I would not be discussing this if I did not have a genuine interest in serving the Scouts in their best interest. This is in no way the same as someone who intentionally adds requirements.

Once again, this seems to be another loop where Nationals should've clearly written this out. Would it be that hard to have a comment written for these requirements clarify if they can or can not be ERB.

Also I would like to say that when I first found this topic and wondered if I had shorted any scouts because of this process, I went back and no where did I find a scout that had only ERB's as the first badges earned. Seems to be an arguement that at least for troop doesn't even come into play. Most scouts are the other way around as they usually want to take the non-required badges first.

[ASM-142]

Let's say you have a scout that has the meet all other requirements for Star. The only MBs that he has earned are:
Swimming
First Aid
Camping
Cit in Community
Cit in the Nation
Cit in the World

This scout based on earming six MB should qualify for Star. There is no written rule that says he should not. If this scout decides to continue in scouting after Star, then badges can be re-allocated as he moves up.[/list]

[ASM-142]

...
Also - I don't appreciate the suggestions that I should be careful about the way I'm recording this. Suggesting that I am adding to the requirements. As I stated, I brought this issue up to the SPL and committee and it was unanimous to continue the way we are. I resent this suggestion as a concerned volunteer, I would not be discussing this if I did not have a genuine interest in serving the Scouts in their best interest. This is in no way the same as someone who intentionally adds requirements.
...

Do not take this personnally, but I do not understand how someone can resent having sugguestions made that are in the best interest of scouts. Just because the SPL and committee vote to do something does not mean that it is correct.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Do not take this personnally, but I do not understand how someone can resent having sugguestions made that are in the best interest of scouts. Just because the SPL and committee vote to do something does not mean that it is correct.

I agree that this doesn't mean it is correct. Suggestions I do not resent. Being told that I must be careful is what I resent.

[wagionvigil]

ALright folks lets not get upset over this. I personally think we have a problem. Since I follow the so many required and so many non required for each rank. Just my opinion. There are other opinions with this and they are just as solid. Possibly someone will take time (that I do not have right now) to actuially contact National and get an opinion. I think i go they way I do because WHen I got Eagle it was spelled out better. X required then 1 from this catogory and 2 from this catogory etc.