Revisiting advancement topic

[aflmom]

I know this has come up before, but I was unable to find the thread.

My 12 y/o son came home this evening discouraged from talking to his SM. His SM is concerned re: him moving through the ranks and obtaining his Eagle when he's 14--even though he's doing the work. For instance, a couple of months ago they had a merit badge madness camp and he was the only scout who did all of his prereq. Leaders in the troop aren't concerned with the quality of his work because they want him to help teach different merit badges and use his notebooks as examples.

I understand some of the issues raised included maturity and how it would look to scouts that are older than him yet lower in rank. I know they can't 'legally' hold him back, but they can make it difficult. Over the summer, he completed 3 merit badges (personal fitness, personal management, and family life). However, even though he asks every week, they have only checked him off on one merit badge. The merit badge counselor either isn't there, has to leave early, or has forgotten his notebooks which she wanted to review ahead of time. He has consistently done more than what is asked to and even on oral requirements he does the objective in writing. In fact, they have told him he does 'more' than most of the scouts.

I had mentioned this before, but we're in a unique situation. My son is enrolled in college. He is planning on having his AA degree at 14, Bachelors at 15-16 and then transferring and getting his masters. He realizes that as his classes get more challenging, he will need to devote less time to scouts. He's given up football to have time for his youth group, scouts, and college.

It has been a hard fight for him to get accepted into college at his age. I don't think he's up to 'fighting' to obtain his Eagle rank.

He spoked with his SM and while he felt his SM was listening, he didn't feel he 'understood' what he was saying.

Do you have any suggestions? Before I speak with his SM or ask if we can all get together, I wanted to run things by here.

[Mrw]

You need to go in and talk to the SM at the next meeting! You are right to let your son try to handle it himself, but this was talked about a couple months ago and nothing seems to be happening for him.

If the counselor is not being helpful, ask the SM when you go with your son to talk to him for the name of another counselor. You can then let the unhelpful counselor know that you would like to follow them home that evening and pick up the notebooks so you can see someone else since they are too busy to fit your son in.

If the older boys are embarassed by someone younger passing them, they will work harder. If it doesn't bother them, who cares? Not every boy cares about advancement.

[Scouting179]

As much as some want it to be, the bottom line is AGE AND MATURITY ARE NOT A REQUIREMENT to make Eagle.

Scouts as young as 12 1/2 have made Eagle.

National will overturn any decision by an SM, Eagle BOR, District or Council to hold up a Scout merely because of age and/or maturity. If you can't resolve this with your SM, take it right up the line to District, then Council, then National.

[evmori]

I'm a Family Life counselor. If you would like me to meet with your son I would be more than happy to.

Find other counselors.

[Lynda J]

My Kevin is 12. Will complete his Life next month. He has all but two of his Eagle required badges and has enough other badges that he has already completed the non reqired. He understands the process. He does not want to complete Eagle until 15. He said he wants to have fun earning Eagle. That he doesn't feel it is important how fast he earns is but how much fun he has doing it. Once he has earned his Eagle he wants to earn all the Palms and them be an JASM. He has already been on Jr. Staff for Outdoor Leaders Skills training and has already been ask back. He loves scouting and we are lucky in that we have a SM that loves seeing his boys advance but also knows that advancement without truly learning isn't what he wants for our troop.
I would suggest that you do talk to the SM.

One thing I have seen is scouts that earn Eagle very early 13-14 and about 80% leave scouting after that. That is sad. Not only for Scouting but for the Scout.

[ASM-142]

I'm a Family Life counselor. If you would like me to meet with your son I would be more than happy to.

Find other counselors.

The only problem with this is it is not up to the Scout to pick his MBC but the SM.

The SM must be made aware that age and maturity (nor older non-advancing scouts) should not hold up advancement

[deweylure]

the previous post said its up to the scoutmaster to pick the counselor. As far as I know it is not up to the scoutmaster. Usually they would have a list of counselors and the scout picks the counselor and makes the appointment.


Dewey lure

[Mrw]

As advancement chair in our troop, I keep the list and the boys come to me for counselor names. I can steer them to someone I know does a good job, away from someone who is not responsive or randomly pick a name as I don't know any of the ones who are listed for a particular badge.

Any boy who is having trouble getting a counselor to set and keep an appointment should come back to me for more choices.

Generally I give the boy 2-3 names in case he has trouble contacting one of them.

The only reason I keep the list with me and don't just hand out copies is that I can keep it updated with new counselors and cross off those I don't want to use.

[evmori]

the previous post said its up to the scoutmaster to pick the counselor. As far as I know it is not up to the scoutmaster. Usually they would have a list of counselors and the scout picks the counselor and makes the appointment.


Dewey lure

Yep that's correct. The SM gives the Scout the name of the merit badge counselor. But a Scout can suggest a counselor.

[aflmom]

MRW, actually I reminded my ds that he has everything saved since he did it on his computer. He can always print out another copy and we won't need to follow his counselor home. However, that doesn't help as far as the articles and research info and comparison shopping information he gathered for buying a new car.

Unless my son asks for 'help' I try to let him handle things. Maybe I go to the extreme and wait too long. He's very self-confident and comfortable. He's use to handling problems himself and even taking care of problems for us i.e. calling tech support, getting RMA numbers, and dealing with a variety of situations. He's written articles to the editor, spoken with newspaper reporters, etc. Once we had rented a stump grinder and he returned the item while I waited in the car with the other children. He never hesitated once about asking the clerk for a refund to be issued to our credit card since it was returned in less than 4 hours. He's had his own checking acct for several years and a credit card for a year (with a limit on it). Thankfully, I don't have to fight his battles for him.

In some ways, every part of the scout program has been a stuggle. When he started he didn't know ANYTHING nor was anyone forthcoming in explaining the steps. He obtained his first merit badge, engineering, by going to a college campus 60 miles away that was having an expo and speaking with a merit badge counselor there. Although it's been frustrating for him, maybe the 'struggling' is good. Perhaps God is allowing it to prepare him for the future.

Scouting 179, thanks for posting the proper steps to go through if we need to appeal. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

Evmori, thanks for volunteering! I didn't know he was allowed to get counselors out of the area. I know out of the 3 merit badges he worked on over the summer, the counselor went through 1 1/2 of them. I'm not sure which one was completed. He has asked for a list of counselors but hasn't been given one. He was told that (?) district or council is working on a list and that all of his Eagle badges can be done by the leaders of the troop.

Linda J, I know what you're saying about boys dropping out after obtaining their Eagle and he may be in the same position due to time constraints and having to travel for his degree. Even though he may not be able to give back directly to scouts for awhile, hopefully he will be giving back to his community.

For his Eagle Project he wants to do something for a local homeless shelter as opposed to a church or non-profit organization that can typically gather the funds and manpower needed. As far as future plans, he wants to get a degree in IT Security and a masters in leadership and go into youth ministry. He LOVES scouting. I never ever thought scouting (or anything) would come before football. He forfeited playing football this season due to the conflict between scouts and practice. Ironically, he does not really enjoy doing the merit badges. Perhaps because he already knows what he wants to do and in what direction he's heading. I don't know. I did ask him if he planned on doing 'extra' merit badges and he really wasn't interested. I think a lot of the material is redundant and things he has already been exposed to. On the other hand, if he had a counselor that was a true expert or professional in the field, he would love talking to him and learning! Going through objectives, reading the books, and looking up info on the internet just isn't the same.

[ASM-142]

...

He was told that (?) district or council is working on a list and that all of his Eagle badges can be done by the leaders of the troop.

...

Unless the leaders of his troop are registered as Merit Badge Counselor (MBC)for each badge they can not be done by the leaders of the troop. If someone signs as a MBC and is not registered as such the MB is not earned and can be revoked.

[West]

One thing I have seen is scouts that earn Eagle very early 13-14 and about 80% leave scouting after that. That is sad. Not only for Scouting but for the Scout.

I've always figured that is where you find out who truely 'earned' their Eagle. If we do a good job of instilling the lessons and values while they are working toward eagle then they usually stay. If we made eagle the end goal rather then simply and opertunity to prove what they're capable of they will probably leave. Of course it's also important to give the kids a reason to stay. Give them more oppertunites for growth in leadership, faith, skills etc. and they are more likely to stick around. I lkie to hammer on the Eagel Challange too, remind them that now is when they are supposed to give back. Make it a point of honour.

[evmori]

Evmori, thanks for volunteering! I didn't know he was allowed to get counselors out of the area.

A Scout can use any registered MB counselor. Makes no difference where the counselor lives.

[Scouting179]

One thing I have seen is scouts that earn Eagle very early 13-14 and about 80% leave scouting after that. That is sad. Not only for Scouting but for the Scout.

I've always figured that is where you find out who truely 'earned' their Eagle. If we do a good job of instilling the lessons and values while they are working toward eagle then they usually stay. If we made eagle the end goal rather then simply and opertunity to prove what they're capable of they will probably leave. Of course it's also important to give the kids a reason to stay. Give them more oppertunites for growth in leadership, faith, skills etc. and they are more likely to stick around. I lkie to hammer on the Eagel Challange too, remind them that now is when they are supposed to give back. Make it a point of honour.

Excellent reply, West.

I've found this is based on the individual, not the age. We have had two Scouts earn Eagle at age 12. The first stayed all the way to 18 and the second is currently 14 and the SPL.

It is NOT up to the SM to assign counselors. The Scout can choose any approved counselor.

[Lynda J]

Same thing with the requirements on a badge. If it says do one of the three requirements listed it is normally up to the boy which one he choses. Not for the counselor to chose. Had to talk to a counselor last week about this on Environmental Science. He was telling the boys which experiments they could do.
As long as the boys meets the requirements and does his best. That is what is expected on him.

[PaulSWolf]

It is NOT up to the SM to assign counselors. The Scout can choose any approved counselor.

Actually, according to Boy Scout Requirements, it IS up to the Scoutmaster to assign the counselor. In the Introduction to Merit Badges, under "Pick a Subject", it specifically says

Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors.

The SM can, but is not obligated to, let the Scout choose from the list. However that is the exception, not the rule.

[aflmom]

One thing I have seen is scouts that earn Eagle very early 13-14 and about 80% leave scouting after that. That is sad. Not only for Scouting but for the Scout.

I've always figured that is where you find out who truely 'earned' their Eagle. If we do a good job of instilling the lessons and values while they are working toward eagle then they usually stay. If we made eagle the end goal rather then simply and opertunity to prove what they're capable of they will probably leave. .

Hmm, guess I didn't earn my college degree since I quit working a few years ago.

[/quote]

[evmori]

One thing I have seen is scouts that earn Eagle very early 13-14 and about 80% leave scouting after that. That is sad. Not only for Scouting but for the Scout.

I've always figured that is where you find out who truely 'earned' their Eagle. If we do a good job of instilling the lessons and values while they are working toward eagle then they usually stay. If we made eagle the end goal rather then simply and opertunity to prove what they're capable of they will probably leave. .

Hmm, guess I didn't earn my college degree since I quit working a few years ago.

I think the point is there are boys in Scouting just to earn Eagle. Reason? Looks good on a resume!

[Scouting179]

It is NOT up to the SM to assign counselors. The Scout can choose any approved counselor.

Actually, according to Boy Scout Requirements, it IS up to the Scoutmaster to assign the counselor. In the Introduction to Merit Badges, under "Pick a Subject", it specifically says

Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors.

The SM can, but is not obligated to, let the Scout choose from the list. However that is the exception, not the rule.

It has "give", not "assign", him the name of a counselor. That doesn't mean the Scout can't choose any approved counselor he likes.

I've never seen a SM force a Scout to use a certain counselor, just recommend them. On the other hand, I have seen some do things like tell their Scouts they must use MBCs from outside their troop (to get more exposure), tell them they have to be First Class to earn MBs, etc.; but all that is for another thread.

[aflmom]

Is it the norm for 3 adult leaders to 'grill' a scout for almost 1 1/2 hrs as to why he wants to be an Eagle, his motives, the difference between paper Eagle scouts vs. real scouts, their concerns re: him moving forward so rapidly at his age (although still within the BSA guidelines), needing time to have fun and enjoy scouting/college, concerns about how it would look to older scouts or if he didn't do well at the BOR for his Eagle rank, having the maturity and social skills to be an Eagle scout, the potential to make a fatal mistake, etc.

Just wondering....

My son is now in the process of getting reference letters attesting to his maturity and social skills--one from a college professor who has observed him in an academic setting interacting with other students and one from a pastor who invited him to be a guest speaker and share with their congregation.

I wasn't there and thus didn't hear the conversation but heard a few comments that my son made i.e. " Everyone makes mistakes and you can learn from them. I would rather learn from mistakes at 12 and with you {the troop} than when I'm older." "With all due respect, what you may have enjoyed doing when you were my age is probably different than what I enjoy. We're different people."