Another Attendance Question -- Completely Absent Scouts

[wagionvigil]

KA Ching!!!!!!!!!

[Billiken]

Therefore this should not be a rule in your (or any) troop.

Your point is that absent leaders are still working towards the goal of the company/organization. This is true. However the key word is working.

These guys are not working on any scout-related stuff during their absence. Nothing.

I should perhaps retract the comment that this is a rule.

[Billiken]

wagionvigil:

In my short time here I have read many of your posts and respect your insight and knowledge.

Please answer this: Your troop elects a SMP who you then don't see or communicate with for 6 months. At the end of 6 months he shows up with a stack of signed merit badge cards (service project already completed) and requests a Life BOR.

Remember, no contact for 6 months whatsoever.

Does he get the BOR?

[Mick Scouter]

I hear the emotions setting in on this topic. BSA sets rules and expects them to be followed. Troops, Districts, and Councils SHALL not add or subtract from the rules. If they do as previoulsy mentioned a number of posts ago and a boy for whatever reason claims that he can not advance because of the policy, I think we know where BSA would fall on the issue. They would side with the boy making the claim that he could not advance because of troop policy. Regardless of if the boy and his parents agreed to it initially or not. Now this may not and probably will not happen in the case we are discussing but facts are facts. I know there are a lot of good troops out there but I find it hard to believe that even the best troop follows BSA policy to the letter. I say this because no one individual knows all the policies that have been established. Also we are human and make errors. Even if the error was not deliberate because of lack of knowledge or just a mistake, it is still an error.

[ASM-142]

I should perhaps retract the comment that this is a rule.

Just retracting it is one thing putting it inot action is another. Is the committee chair also going to retract this rule?

[wagionvigil]

You asked I will answer. According to BSA Policy Yes. Does he pass the Board? that I donot know.
What I am trying to put forth is BSA has rules We as units cannot change or add to those rules.
Troop rules which this falls under is a pet peeve of mine. It really started when I was Lodge Adv. A troop set what they thought were their own rules for eligibility for election. Attendance,activites were all included. But the National Eiligibility rules are all that counts. I decided then and There That I would Fight to the end troop rules. The troop in question haad two choices to hold an election according to NAtional Policy or loose their Charter. I was willing to push it that far.

[ASM-142]

Example:

Your troop has 21 scouts and has just recruited 15 new 5th graders. For the next SPL election your existing scouts voted evenly 7 votes for three different boys. However, the 15 new scouts all voted for the same new scout who is heavily tied up in baseball and will miss all the meetings from April through summercamp. The new scouts understand this but they still want this scout as the SPL. Will you deny the fair election process and not allow this boy to be SPL?

[Mick Scouter]

There are a number of ways to learn. Failure is one of them. He may or may not fail but boys need to learn from their mistakes.

[commish3]

I would agree that making a rule that you have to be present is not the solution nor does it reflect the goal of the requirement. The requirement says to actively serve.

I once had an SPL that was a top notch wrestler. When the practices were going to interfere he would call me on the weekend and have me review his agenda. then he called his assistant and went over it with him. He folowed up the next night with the ASPL to see how things went and then called me for advice, (sometimes I advised him and sometimes he advised me )

When we were camping he came after the wrestling meet and took control of his duties again. He was outstanding. He passed his requirement even though he was seldom there. Why? Because when he was elected we talked. He understoood what his responsibilities were and I understood how important his athletic life was to him. We struck a compromise on what he needed to accomplish in his term and he did everything we agreed on. He worked harder at being the SPL then any scout I ever had who was there 99% of the time.

You cannot deliver scouting to a group. Real scouting is delivered one boy at a time. "Active" is a unique quantity to each scout. the most important task a SM has is to know and understand the needs a characteristics of each boy so that the program can make use of each strength and help improve on each personal weakness.

Rather than make rules...make time to get to know each Scout.

[Mick Scouter]

Could not have been stated better.

[Mrw]

We emphasize with the boys who are running for leadership positions that we would like them to be able to be present the majority of the time to run the troop meetings, etc.

We have had a few boys who have passed on eligibility to run for SPL as they were involved in another activity at the time which would conflict. Then they would be interested 6 months later as the conflict no longer existed.

As far as a BOR, if the boy was often not present, we would ask him to explain why he was not around and to tell us what he had done to carry out his duties while he was away. Generally, the boy would know this was an issue of concern long before he asked for the SM conf and BOR.

[Mick Scouter]

Mrw, thanks a light bulb went off in my head. There are no need for additional rules based on what you stated.

We emphasize with the boys who are running for leadership positions that we would like them to be able to be present the majority of the time to run the troop meetings, etc.

It is the job of the Adult leadership's purpose to explain the expectation and importance of leadership. If they choose not to lead then they must be able to explain their actions or lack of actions or attendance. There is also a difference between a boy that is active in other activities and one who chooses not to attend for convenience.

[Billiken]

wagionvigil: I understand re hard/fast troop rules. Going forward we will now discuss with the boys that there is an expectation (responsibility), that, if elected to a leadership role, one should be present at a majority of the functions during their tenure.

Also that being absent would diminish the value/amount of the hands-on leadership and inter-personal skills that they would learn.

I just discussed this with the Committee Chair (son is one of the swimmers). He appreciated the concern (i.e. correction) and stressed that it was his son's choice to be completely absent when swimming season was on. Regardless, we'll now insure that it is NOT an absolute.

I gave him the web address of this valuable talk board.
I'm sure he'll be registering/contributing in the next day or so.

Special thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic.

There is also a difference between a boy that is
active in other activities and one who chooses not to attend for convenience.

Mick Scouter: I don't understand what you mean.
Thanks.

[KJT495]

This is a topic our troop leadership has discussed frequently, but there is really not a good solution. There is the hard and fast BSA requirements that are the bottom line. Boys have made Eagle, but some did not feel like a true Eagle Scout. Its my opinion that in the end, the boys that have been more active and have tried harder to manage sports AND scouting will have more personal growth and personal satisfaction upon earning Eagle or any other rank. I don't like it when a boys "uses" the troop to become an Eagle Scout, but has given very little back. Perhaps instead of a month time requirement for Life to Eagle, there should be a percentage of active time. A boy can be Life for 5 years - but only has to be active for 6 months? Where's the Scout spirit in that?

[John F.]

Is there a policy on how active in the troop a scout has to be before they receive the rank of Eagle?

In the past I have seen scouts come back to the troop to get their Eagle after being absent for over two years. There are many young scout who don’t know who this person is who is about receive the rank of Eagle at the Eagle court of honor. The first time they see him is at COH.

[EagleBoy62204]

Is there a policy on how active in the troop a scout has to be before they receive the rank of Eagle?

In the past I have seen scouts come back to the troop to get their Eagle after being absent for over two years. There are many young scout who don’t know who this person is who is about receive the rank of Eagle at the Eagle court of honor. The first time they see him is at COH.

Ive seen that all too well in my troop, it happened when i was a first year in fact. and a couple years ago with a couple other kids..

[Mrw]

We haven't had any come back after that long for an award.

We did have one who was completely inactive, but Dad supports scouts and so paid his recharter for three years until he turned 18.

His dad then had him fill out an adult application and paid his recharter for another couple years. We finally decided it was silly and dropped him.

I think if he had come back for an award, especially Eagle, he would have been told he was expected to be around a bit to get his project done and involve the troop.

Really, telling the boy he is expected to be a part of the troop but not writing it as a rule is within both the letter AND the spirit of the "be active" requirement. Especially explained in the vein of how he needs to show leadership for the requirement to be signed off.

[yardhunter]

.............I would like to add another thought to this thread.

Even if the boy is active in swim, wrestling, etc. ......Why can't he attend a scout meeting anyway?? If he has 5 evenings a week for school practices, he just needs to tell the coach that he will be absent for about 2 hours one evening a week & attend the scout meeting.

It all depends on where one's priorities are.

Mine was in scouting when I was in school. I was determined to get the Eagle award & occasionally in meant missing something else.
I must be a rare breed, because I see nothing wrong with it..............see ya yardhunter

[wagionvigil]

Most coaches will drop you for that. Wrong but they do it. School boards will back the coach on this for some reason. It is probably the only time they will.

[Lynda J]

As important as I feel Scouting is School is more important. And yes a coach will drop a student if they don't attend. Most sports are part of a students grade. If that student does not attend them he doesn't get a grade and in the long run risks failing a subject.

I have two boy in my troop that play football. Their practice is on Monday night from 6-8. Our troop meeting if 6:30-8:30. They miss the meetings during football season and there is little they can do about it. I refuse to penalize them for that. Do they lose out of activities during that time YES.
But both are really good boys and good Scouts. What we have done is worked it out with the coach that the boys earn their Sports Merit Badge under his supervision.
Same thing with kids in band. Talk to the band director about the Music Merit Badge. The boys are doing the work so they might as well get credit for it. It also works with Traffic Safety and Drivers Education.