Having older boys sign off requirements

[BuffaloSE-583]

How many of you allow older scouts to sign off requirements (1st class or higher), for the younger scouts?

My old troop did not do this, so I wasn't used to it. Now , the new troop I work with is not that large (about 24 scouts), and we have about 7 active leaders.

The problem is that it is hard to read the name and date that the requirement was signed off... I discovered this when the troop got Troopmaster, and I had to go through all the scouts books to enter in the database...

Leadership has announced to the troop to sign/date requirements where people can read them, but it doesn't seem to be getting through.

I'm thinking of proposing to the committee and/or the PLC to stop this practice and to allow only ASM's to sign off requirements...

This would also stop any practice of older boys signing for requirements before the scout thoughly learns the skill.

I have been noticing that the younger boys are having a hard time in the SM conference / BORs.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I would point out to the younger boys having their books signed off, to make sure the writing is legible or they won't get credit. This will ensure the boys look and can get the older boy to sign it again. Eventually the older boys will get the point.

Second - I would gather the boys doing the signing and let them know that boys are struggling in SMC and stress the importance of being thorough with requirements.

I would not stop the practice of having boys sign off as this is an important role within a boy run troop.

btw - our troop does allow 1st class or higher, sign off on younger boys books too.

[gwd-scouter]

Our troop allows PLs, Troop Guides, Instructors to sign off on advancement requirements. Of course, as SM I always check the scout's knowledge during a SM conference. If it is clear the scout does not know the material but was signed off by another scout, then I must go have a nice chat with the scout that did the signing. Haven't had to do that yet, though.

[diamondbackAPL]

our troop does not let the boys sign off but they can go over it with them and send them to an adult

[Mad Dog]

Our troop requires that the boys have their requirements signed off by any scout First Class or above. I have had a lot of problems with this. Too often the older boys do not make time to go over the requirements with the younger boys and it takes weeks for the boys to get things signed off. This is a real moral buster for the younger scouts. At the Scoutmaster Conference our SM goes over all the requirements and retests the boys. If the boys have the requirements signe doff I do not feel that this should be necessary. Most SM conferences last 45 - 60 minutes. Then the boys hav a board of review with thre of the older scouts and they are agaibn retested. I am just an ASM and can't change what happens in the troop but I often go home from meetings totally frustrated. And the SM complains that the boys are not advancing to First class fast enough. UGH

[Billiken]

Then the boys have a board of review with three of the older scouts and they are again retested.

BOR with older scouts?????????????

Again retested??????????????

[ASM-142]

Then the boys have a board of review with three of the older scouts and they are again retested.

BOR with older scouts?????????????

Again retested??????????????

Ditto

[wagionvigil]

Does not sound good

[Mad Dog]

It isn't good it's frustrating. When I asked the SM why it was done that way he said that is "the way it has always been done and I am not going to change it". He says that he retests the boys and is "tough" on them because he knows the older scouts will be just as tough. For Star and Life three adults from the scout committe do the BOR. They typically just ask questions about scout spirit etc. They have a list of suggested questions that the SM printed off the net. I considered having my son change troops because of this but he likes all the boys and fits in well and it doesn't seem to bother him. I assme he just thinks this is how it should be.

[Lynda J]

BSA is pretty exacting about who can sit on a BOR and it is not 'older Scouts".

For all ranks (except Eagle) and Eagle palms, the Board of Review consists of three to six members of the Troop Committee. The Troop Advancement Chairperson typically acts as the chairperson of the Board of Review. Relatives or guardians may not serve as members of a Scout's Board of Review. Unit leaders (Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmasters, Varsity Coach, Post Advisor, etc.) should not participate in a Board of Review unless absolutely necessary.

For the rank of Eagle, the Board of Review consists of three to six members drawn from Scouting and the community. The members of the Board of Review are selected by the District Advancement Committee; at least one member of the District Advancement Committee must be a member of the Board of Review for Eagle, and serves as chairperson of the Board of Review. Unit leaders from the Scout's unit, relatives, or guardians may not serve as members of a Scout's Board of Review for Eagle. A Board of Review for Eagle may contain members of the community who are not registered Scouters; however, they should be knowledgeable of the principles of Scouting. For example, a representative from a chartering organization, an adult Eagle Scout (even if not currently registered), or a religious leader are frequently asked to assist with an Eagle Board of Review. The Scout may request an individual to be a member of his Board of Review. As a general rule, no more than one member of an Eagle Board should be associated with the Scout's unit.

[EagleBoy62204]

They probably mean that they boys give the scout a BOR to test the boy to make sure hes ready. We do that in our troop but we dont call it a BOR, its just to make sure the boy knows the material before he goes infront of the scoutmaster and Committee.

Our troop allows the older older scouts to sign stuff off as long as they have gone through our councils JLT program, and at the scoutmasters discretion. The spl usually is able to sign off requirements, along with the guides. Most of them are around 16 - 17years and 11 months old, so theres no problem with them not knowing the material.

im 19 now, and i have been signing stuff of since i was 16. my scoutmaster knew i was ready for leadership so he allowed me to review with the first years, and if there wasnt a adult able to sign it off, the i would be able too. As i moved out of the older program i took over the first year leader position when i turned 18 and have been signing their stuff off when i see that they know the material.

[FrankJ]

Mad Dog Have you talked to the committee chair & advancement chair about this? Are the scouts signing off as the BOR in the handbook? Boy run yes, but this is a little extreme. This degree of testing is not required for advancement. Retesting once a requirement is signed off is not required.

It sounds like there are positive things in the troop. Your son likes it & the boys seem to be running it. A little training for the adult leaders should help the advancement issues. Good official resources are the scout handbook & scout master handbook.

Another resource to talk to would be your Unit Commisioner. This is a vouluteer position & they range from great to can't find anbody to take the job.

[OldGreyBear]

If you think that you must retest your scouts to be sure they know their stuff, then you should look at the mechanism you have in place for signing off requirements in the first place. Signing off means they know the requirement, if you need to retest 2 months later or so, how well did you teach it?

[cballman]

for a boy to learn something well enough to remember means that after you learn it the first time then you go over it again and again then you teach it then you teach it again and again. is one time through it enough no but if it gets signed off in his book then he must have done it right at least once. now for anyone to remember how to do something is to teach it over and over again.

[WVBeaver05]

Coming back to the fundamental question (and potential problem) ....

When we allow more experienced Scouts to sign off requirements how is the best way to ensure that the requirements are being met?

I feel the conflicting goals of ensuring that all Scouts fully meet the requirements as written and allowing/enabling the Scouts to have the responsibility of teaching and testing. I am currently trying to make sure that one of the adults are present as observers (and if needed to offer advice to the training/testing Scout). But, longer term we would like to reach a point of confidence that the Scouts are giving proper emphasis to the program. I have some concern about follow up discussions with the training/testing Scouts being seen as lack of confidence.

We have tried having the Scouts train and test them and then bring them to an adult to demonstrate the skill and have it signed off. This does build some additional skills in the teaching Scouts as they present their "trainee" to an adult, but doesn't seem to fully utilize the responsibility that we are trying to instill.

And, as a last question -- which older Scouts do you allow to sign off? One school of thought seems to be that if they have the rank that the requirement is for they should be able to sign it off. From my personal experience that one bothers me a bit since I find that I usually am not very good at teaching something until I am 1 "unit" beyond it (e.g. a whole semester further along in school courses).

I am comfortable not allowing any Scout who is not yet First Class to sign off any requirements. I wonder what the people in the group think about limiting further? Say to PLC members or PLC members and Life Scouts or some other criteria.

As you can probably see from the length of this post, this is a subject that I consider deeply and that causes me some conflict.

YiS

[diamondbackAPL]

Then the boys have a board of review with three of the older scouts and they are again retested.

BOR with older scouts?????????????

Again retested??????????????

Ditto

this is Shane and I would hate that so much, especially if there was COH soon and I couldn't get the rank then because I had to be retested.

[Scouting179]

Talk about violating BOR procedures and policies!

[FrankJ]

In regards to WVbeaver05 question: It is the SM's decision as who to allow to sign off on completed rank requirements. If the SM feels a need to retest during the SM conference then he is probably allowing too many people to sign off on the requirements. You want enough people allowed to sign off so the scout can signed off without waiting forever which varies troop to troop. Also during basic skills instruction the instructers should be allowed a say, but in the end it as up to what the Scoutmaster is comfortable with.

[jk]

Boys want to learn from other boys, not from other adults.
A scout of higher rank should be able to sign off on anything but the S.M.C. & B.O.R.
This also teaches the older scouts how to lead.

[Mrw]

We also make clear to the older boys that they will lose the priviledge of signing off requirements if they do not do it responsibly.