Venturing and the OA

[optimist]

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
Location: PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 09:35 am Post subject: Venturing and
the OA

I see in the very near future Females in Venturing Crews be
eligible in the OA. I know whet the requirements are as far as
first class etc,. and that is easy to take care of. Having a
First Class rank / award in venturing. What are everyone's
thoughts on this? It may be a big bomb shell when it hits!
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Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 155
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 09:41 am Post subject:

Our lodge already has a few female members....which seems to
work out ok..but these females are older and tend to take care
of the cooking...(which is not a bad thing!) but I see it as a
way to allow scouting to grow. There will be a big problem in
getting female leaders/adult OA members to cover the two-deep
policy, which would still apply.
Maybe they should have a basic 1 level membership for the
females and then have the standard 3 tier membership
ordeal/brotherhood/vigil for the males?
Or just let everything alone and see what happens!
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
Location: PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 09:44 am Post subject:

That would open a law suit on equality. Wagion has female
Vih=gil Honor members. What I am refering to is 16-20 year old
felmae youth.
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 155
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 09:46 am Post subject:

well you are right about that! It is my understanding that
currently Venture Crews cannot hold OA elections?
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
Location: PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 10:01 am Post subject:

"AT this time" they may not. In the near future ?Who Knows?
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 155
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 12:23 pm Post subject:

In Europe don't they allow both male & female? I guess it
works ok over there..so why should we be any different?
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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 187
Location: PA
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 02:42 pm Post subject:

We are the only country that is not co ed totally. (I Think)
_________________
Action Center D Rappel Tower Director 2001 and 2005 National
Jamborees
Northeast REgion Area 4 Venturing Chairman
Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"

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BM_Crawford
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Location: PA W/F Council
Posted: 06 Aug 2004 06:05 pm Post subject:

I think it would be a good idea. There are alot of women in
scouting who help out alot. Why not give them a greater
opertunity to help the scouting community?
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Brian Crawford
Troop 251

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 155
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 06:17 am Post subject:

I don't think anyone would have a big problem with it....maybe
the Girl Scouts would start to complain because their
membership would drop off...they would all be joining venture
crew so they could do more adventurous activities..and maybe
be elected into the OA etc.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 08:20 am Post subject:

OA has always been part of the BOY SCOUT program. It is not
part of the Venturing program. That is why crews can not hold
elections, it is only through the dual enrolled members that
some venturers are also in the OA. All OA brothers must be
elected by their Boy Scout unit.

We are not the rest of the world. Some Scout organizations are
religious based, does that make it right for us?

Why is it a crime to have an organization for male youth? The
OA concept is not broken, it doesn't need fixing. It is part
of the Boy Scout program, which is not coed for the youth.

Your opinions may vary.

B2
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Bill Britt
Scoutmaster
Troop 509
Hurlburt Field, FL

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[OldGreyBear]

Since a Venture who want to work on Eagle has to join the Venture Crew as a first Class scout, I dont see how a Female Venture can become first class. The OA has shown its self to be bastion of misogynistic good ol' boys and Ventures would do well to leave them alone, for as much as I have seen of OA, Ventures dont need'em

[Guneukitschik]

It is impossible for any VENTURING member to be elected into the OA. A VENTURING Crew cannot even hold OA elections.

[PaulSWolf]

Since a Venture who want to work on Eagle has to join the Venture Crew as a first Class scout, I dont see how a Female Venture can become first class. The OA has shown its self to be bastion of misogynistic good ol' boys and Ventures would do well to leave them alone, for as much as I have seen of OA, Ventures dont need'em

and

It is impossible for any venture member to be elected into the OA. A Venture Crew cannot even hold OA elections.

Fisrt of all, PLEASE use the correct terminology. VENTURE is a type of PATROL within Boy Scout Troops. VENTURING is the program we're talking about. The participants are VENTURERS not VENTURES

As for Venturers in OA, there are thousands across the country, that are active in both Venturing and the OA. Each of them was elected while a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout, just like all other youth members of the OA. Consequently, it is true that there are no female youth members in the OA. Keep in mind that the OA is specifically a program of the Boy Scout Division, but once inducted into membership, anyone may retain their membership so long as they maintain an active membership in any division of the BSA, including Venturing youth and adults and Cub Scouting adults.

Adults (over 21) can be members of the OA, (1) if they were elected as a youth, or 2) by being chosen while they served as an adult leader in a Troop or Varsity Team, or, in rare circumstances, while serving in a District or Council Leadership position. Included in the number that have been elected in that manner (i.e. as an adult) are thousands of women who are active members of the OA.

[Guneukitschik]

As for Venturers in OA, there are thousands across the country, that are active in both Venturing and the OA. Each of them was elected while a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout, just like all other youth members of the OA. Consequently, it is true that there are no female youth members in the OA. Keep in mind that the OA is specifically a program of the Boy Scout Division, but once inducted into membership, anyone may retain their membership so long as they maintain an active membership in any division of the BSA, including Venturing youth and adults and Cub Scouting adults.

Adults (over 21) can be members of the OA, (1) if they were elected as a youth, or 2) by being chosen while they served as an adult leader in a Troop or Varsity Team, or, in rare circumstances, while serving in a District or Council Leadership position. Included in the number that have been elected in that manner (i.e. as an adult) are thousands of women who are active members of the OA.

All of the above is correct.....I was just offering OldGreyBear (who appears to not like the OA) a quick answer that VENTURERS currently cannot be ELECTED into OA membership...However in the future....It wouldn't surprise me that Male and Female youth VENTURERS will be able to be to elected into OA membership...it's only a matter of time.

[wagionvigil]

It is going to happen it is just when.

[OldGreyBear]

And just where did you pick up that I didnt care for the OA? Anyway, I made it to brotherhood before it crystallized for me that our lodge was the last resting place for miscreant juveniles who were more interested in padding their scouting resume than in ever offering any cheerful service, and don't get me started on the youth members whose sole goal in life was to be a torch bearer so they could claim ceremonies team status and laugh at the poor suckers who actually worked on a fellowship week end.

Then again, I may have had a singular experience, but Ventureres dont need the OA

[cballman]

ok people lets not get personal with the postings please.just stick with the subject. Thank you

[commish3]

I doubt that female youth will ever be elected into the OA.

For one thing the OA is a Boy Scout Program. Not Cub Scout or Venturing. Sure there are OA members who are in both those areas now. But only because at the time they gained membership they were Boy Scouts.

Second is the matter of youth co-ed activities which are only allowed in Venturing. OA is not a unit activity where youth are responsible to two specific adult leaders. For co-ed overnight activities to able to exist in Venturing a female adult must be responsible for the female youth membership of a unit. The OA format of scouts acting independently on overnight programs would not mesh well with this requirement.

I will leave a $50 bill on my monitor. When OA goes youth co-ed, the first poster to get here gets to keep it.


Most likely at some point down the road if Venturing ever blossoms they will form their own honor organization.

[OldGreyBear]

Has anyone seen this and introduced it in their Crew/District/Council?

http://members.aol.com/venturecod/

[Guneukitschik]

And just where did you pick up that I didnt care for the OA?

Previously you stated the following:

The OA has shown its self to be bastion of misogynistic good ol' boys and Ventures would do well to leave them alone, for as much as I have seen of OA, Ventures dont need'em

I may be reading this incorrectly...but it definately doesn't sound like you are in favor of the OA?

The Order of the Arrow is a National program, which provides much needed service to many different organizations. Please don't hold all of the OA members responsible just because your local lodge is misguided?


Venturing and the OA would benefit greatly if Venturers were allowed to be elected into membership by their fellow crew members.

[wagionvigil]

I am extremely sorry you had a negative OA experience. You need to go see another lodge. Our Lodge is fantastic. WE are the contractors for all construction in our camp. Members have built over the past several years 4 Shower Houses and rest room facilities( these have 6 showers and 5 toilets plus 4 sinks and 2 urinals on each side),15 Camp Site Pavillions,a Adminstration/meeting room/first aid lodgewith geothermal heating and airconditioning. I will also say most was youth built with adult supervision. The youth laid the stone on out new admin building. It took three years of service weekends but they did it. They also laid around 2500 ft of omni stone for a handicapped walk way. Each spring they clean and repaint the pool. AM I a OA fan? You bet ya and I will take all the help I can get to accomplish the mission.

[OldGreyBear]

PaulSWolf, maybe you can help me understand something.

First you are, of course correct, Venture is a patrol and Venturers are members of Crews. I think I have it right, I am open to correction. What I want to know is who ever came up with this public relations disaster? Not the program, but the nomenclature? Think awhile back, the idea of a Venture Patrol was floated out there, strips for uniforms sold, ideas tossed around, the concept of the Venture Patrol, an older boy, high adventure activity centered patrol. Rather soon comes Venturing, a Co-ed non-boy scout program that has 5 distinct areas, Outdoors, Youth Ministries, Arts and Hobbies, Sports and Sea Scouts, Sea Scouts BTW were a well established and funcitoning part of BSA for years. And then the public is expected to understand the difference between a Venture Patrol, comprised of Boy Scouts and a Venturing Crew comprised of Co-ed youth, the males of which may or may not be members of a troop, but may if certain conditions exist when they join the Crew may earn Eagle, a Boy Scout rank.

To me the wonder is anyone gets anything right in Venturing at all. And when I point this out to the Council types the standard reply is, well, its a new program, there is a lot to sort out. What I want to know is when they launched Woodbadge for the 21rst Century, did they just stick it out there and tell people it was new and it had a lot of things to sort out or did the develop the program, test it, adjust it and then test again? Seems that at times Venturing is supposed to fail based on the support it receives from what I can see. I can see that I dont see the whole pictire, but I am trying

[Guneukitschik]

I think the Venture Patrol was the break-in or developmental period of the Venturing Program. It was probably put in place as a way to ease Venturing into Scouting.

We have both: Our Boy Scout Troop has a Venture Patrol. The Venture Patrol is made up of Scouts who are co-registered and belong to a Venturing Crew that is chartered to the same organization.

I kind of think of the Venture patrol as the Link between the Troop and the Crew.

This also allows the younger scouts in the troop to get some exposure to the Venturing Crew.

[wagionvigil]

Many Councils Just Use venturing for #'s and could care less if it failed. But there are alot of Councils out there that are really developing the program. As the Area 4 Chairman in the NE I have both. Some that will never push Venturing because it is Co Ed. ANd many that are starting to have Venturing Weekends at Camp and Venturing Weeks at camp. European High Adventure Trips,Philmont Treks etc. Girl Scouting is loosing the older girls as they want to do the High Adventure things we do in Boy Scouting. Venturing gives them that opportunity. I have seen moe and more GS Troops also registering as Venture Crews. Each Crew can set its own rules for membership.(within limits) It does not have to be co ed.

[OldGreyBear]

Where are you located ? I am near Allentown PA, Do you know what region I am in?

[wagionvigil]

You are in Northeast Region. I will look up what the area is and let you know.What COuncil are you in?

[OldGreyBear]

Minsi trails

[wagionvigil]

you are in NE Area 4 Which is in my jurisdiction. Actually Minsi has a lot of Venturing Activities

[OldGreyBear]

yes, I know as its the Crew I serve that is responsible for most of them. They put together the first Rendezvous of Crews in the Council a few years back and plan on hosting another Cardboard Boat race next august at Camp Minsi, your Crew is invited. Venturing isnt embraced by a lot of people in the council , but the core we have are really comitted.