BOR and scoutmaster confrence.

[MisterChris]

Oops, sorry, somebody beat me to the punch...

[wagionvigil]

If he has a uniform. Not having a uniform cannot be held aganist him.

[MisterChris]

If he has a uniform. Not having a uniform cannot be held aganist him.

Sure it can. Owning a uniform is part of the joining process in most troops. The parents are required to procure a uniform and book for the scout. Those parents that need help ask for and get it. We have men in our Troop and Church that will sponsor a scout to get him in uniform.

BOR is not a requirement for Scout, just Tenderfoot up. The Scout has 30 days (or more) to get his uniform. Troops also have uniform banks to help out with this situation.

There are troops in our area that do not mandate the full dress uniform, just jeans, sneaks, scout shirt, belt, and neckerchief.

Whatever the uniform is, it is the Scouts (and parents') responsibility to get him into it. It is the Troop's honor and priviledge to help in that. But it certainly can be a req for the BOR.

[wagionvigil]

Wrong!
The uniform cannot be a requirement. Look it up.
Nowhere in any scout literature does it say a scout must have a uniform.
The word should leves alot open.
That being said yes A uniform is required to attend the National BSA Jamboree or the World Jamboree. It says that in all the literature BUT it does not say a scout must have a uniform to join or be a scout.
Remebre Troops cannot make up their own rules and this sounds like those "Troop Rules Again" Again this has been discussed before so there fore I am out for now.

[evmori]

If he has a uniform. Not having a uniform cannot be held aganist him.

Sure it can. Owning a uniform is part of the joining process in most troops. The parents are required to procure a uniform and book for the scout. Those parents that need help ask for and get it. We have men in our Troop and Church that will sponsor a scout to get him in uniform.

BOR is not a requirement for Scout, just Tenderfoot up. The Scout has 30 days (or more) to get his uniform. Troops also have uniform banks to help out with this situation.

There are troops in our area that do not mandate the full dress uniform, just jeans, sneaks, scout shirt, belt, and neckerchief.

Whatever the uniform is, it is the Scouts (and parents') responsibility to get him into it. It is the Troop's honor and priviledge to help in that. But it certainly can be a req for the BOR.

A Troop can't require a Scout to own a uniform.

[hacimsaalk]

im now working on my eagle rank in my troop. ever BOR of review i have had, there are a few things that they always checked. 1. SIMPLE FIRST AID- they go over things like what to do for cuts, burns, ect. 2. navigational info. 3. how you live the scout oath and law, and 4. the scout oath and law.

what is so wrong with this? can anyone give me an official reference for the info posted?

[FrankJ]

what is so wrong with this? can anyone give me an official reference for the info posted?

This link is to the BSA web site. It is the official training module for BOR. It pretty much mirrors what is in the Advancement Committee Guide. It is as official as it gets.
http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-625/index.html

Read it for yourself and make your own conclusions.

As for as the uniform for BOR, requiring as complete of an uniform as possible is national policy not a "troop Rule" Clearly a scout wearing something he does not have is not possible, but I think it would be a valid discussion point in BOR.

Personally I think getting scouts engaged in the program should come first and the uniform second.

[MisterChris]

[quote="MisterChrisRead the policies for the BOR linked above. I did. And it has a paragraph allowing you latitude on requiring the boy to be in uniform and neat in appearance.

"How to Hold a BOR" para 4:

A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed.

[/quote]

[evmori]

"How to Hold a BOR" para 4:

A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed.

True but since the BSA doesn't require a Scout to own a uniform to be a member a uniform can't be required for a BOR.

[ASM-142]

There is a difference between expectation and requirement

[Scouting179]

I don't have a problem with BORs requiring a uniform, but I do have a problem with the "retesting", which is explicitly proscribed by the Advancement Guide.

[evmori]

I don't have a problem with BORs requiring a uniform, but I do have a problem with the "retesting", which is explicitly proscribed by the Advancement Guide.

So if a Scout doesn't show up in his uniform for his BOR he won't pass but a Scout showing up in his uniform but knows nothing will? That makes sense!

[MisterChris]

Not one bit of this entire discussion has made sense.

My troop's charter has been threatened
, the methods we've used for 65 years are now out the window,

scouts can pass their Eagle BOR if they know nothing,
Long as he can find a troop that will give him his ranks for free?

Uniforms can't be required because BSA doesn't require them, even if we buy them for the boy?

Say, does a BOR mean anything anyway? Or Eagle? Or the uniform?
What BSA was this forum associated with again?

[FrankJ]

MisterChris:

This is an unofficial forum and is not owned or sanctioned by the Boy Scouts. The opinions expressed here are only opinions and should be validated with official literature if you have any questions. Most of the posters I have read seem to be trying to give honest answers for how the program works in their neck of the woods. I for one am happy that the program can accommodate different styles of troops.

The only person that can pull your charter is your District Executive. Considering the pressure they have for numbers they are not going to pull a charter unless nothing else works.

If a scout has a uniform you can require him to wear unless there is a good reason not to. The argument centers around not being able to force a scout to buy an uniform.

If the system is working properly a scout should rarely get to an advancement BOR without being ready. If the system is not working properly, fix the system.

Eagle BORs are a counsel thing I doubt any counsel gives them away for free. (even if they are done on a troop level there should be a district advancement person there)

If your scouts are engaged learning, and having fun, take a deep breath. Seek to make improvement, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

[cballman]

a bit of history with this answer. back around 1910 BSA was founded and since then everything has been the same as for rank and advancements? Not really every few years scouting has evolved to what we have today. some of the problems are the same some are different. just because a troop did something 30 years ago does that make it right by todays standreds? now looking back I can see where things might have been done a little wrong when I was in scouts but as time passes I think that some things have been made easier for the scouts to attain either a rank or a merit badge. then again I look back and see where things might have been a little bit better the old way. now as to passing a child on to another rank if the child does not know anything it would seem that if he had the requirments signed off then they have passed that req. but if during the SM conference the SM deems the scout unworthy then he should not sign off the SM conference at that time. then what usually happens is that the parents come in ranting and raving about how bad little johnny is being treated and if it dont stop i will hire a lawyer and sue the pants of the SM and the troop. thats what to me seems to be the problem with todays kids the parents wanted to make things easeir on them. now another answer the BSA uniform guidelines state that if a uniform is worn then it must be worn correctly. if a child dont have a uniform then it should not be helld against him. BUT if a child has a uniform and refuses to wear it now that to me would be a problem. I have the means and people that scour the goodwill shops and the like for tested uniforms and will give a child one in a heartbeat.

now lets everybody cool down and stop and look at what this has done to each of you. set back look at the requirements and if there is a problem then fix it at the lower levels of rank advancement NOW. lets not wait for a childs parents to threaten us. just because a troop has done something a certain way for years dont make it right.

so lets loosen up and reflect on what has been said. if not I will lock this thread and let everyone cool off. or if it gets started again on another thread YOU risk losing your membership to this board. period no questions asked none will be answered. period

[MisterChris]

Thanks, Frank.

I needed that.

Yes, these are only opinions of other scouters (and scouts) who may run their programs slightly differently.

But what I read in those replies was that BSA and my troop in specific and for that matter an Eagle BOR cannot require a scout to wear a uniform, even if he has it in his car.

I have sat on 10 or more Eagle BORs in my 15 years as a leader and every time a uniform was required (The District Rep). So practice does not seem to reflect the opinions on this forum.

...And that regardless of whether the scout signed his own book to get his early ranks, if it wasn't caught by the SM before he came for a BOR, and wasn't caught by the BOR, shame on us and we need to be replaced.

(Ummm,... before we go any further let me state categorically that this has NOT happenned in our troop, so put down your shotguns. We don't WANT to be replaced.)

i went ahead and read the Uniform thread, and got the same message there.

Every time I post these forums my mouth seems to get me in deeper hot water.

So before I continue to dig myself and my troop an untimely grave I'm going to sign off and wish you all a happy Memorial Day weekend, unless that offends somebody. In which case I will simply wish you well.

[MisterChris]

Sorry, Charlie, didn't see your post til after I'd posted mine. I'll cool down. Have a good weekend!

[hacimsaalk]

so, uniforms arent required by the BSA, and we cant, in our bylaws, make them required? why not? our Bylaws are ours, not the BSA's.

with the BOR. lets say a boy quickly studies his first aid requirements for 1st class. then, before he forgets, he goes and tells his ASM them, and gets them signed off. later that night, his dad asks him what he learned. he replys"first aid stuff". his dad asks "like what kind of first aid stuff". the boy, honestly, answers" i dont remember". when it comes time for the BOR, since they cant retest him, he gets away with playing the system and winning. if this is the way it works, the we might as well just give the boys their ranks. why even bother having a BOR, lets just automatically advance them to 1st class once the get the reqs. and why bother with the eagle BOR, lets just make them do the Mb's and their project, then bring in some people who know nothing about scouting. then over tea and scones, the eagle candidate and the comittee can BS about his scouting carreer.( it really has to be BS, b/c the can't "retest" the scout in any way)



here is a quote from the Scoutmasters handbook ( page 98, chapter 8- advancement)

THE SCOUT IS REVIEWED-
"When a scout has completed all of the requirements for the rank, he appears before a board of review composed of members of the troop committee. Their purpose is not to retest the scout, BUT TO MAKE SURE HE HAS MET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS FOR TH RANK"


i rest my case.

[evmori]

What you can't do is add to or subtract from the requirements. Requiring uniforms for BOR's is adding to the requirements. You can have all the by-laws you want but you can't require uniforms for BOR's. And not passing a Scout because he isn't in uniform will be overturned on appeal every time.

[wagionvigil]

I know I said I was out But I am back for this comment. I may have offended a poster and I want the poster to know where I am coming from.
Let me say first I expect Uniforms on a scout I did not say I required them so if a kid shows up without his unioform for a BOR I expect an answer as to why. TRuthufully never have had to do that.
Second When I give an answer I try to give what is the Party Line so to speak.
I am totally against troop rules and the troops that try to enforce them. Can you Loose your charter? Yep but as posted Numbers mean everything. Can the council tell you to stop using your troop rules yes and I hope they do. I have set on hearing for troops and what chenged were their rules and the leadership of the troop rather than pulling a charter.
I have heard appels on Eagle Boards and ALways we side with the Scout because 99% of the hearings are due to Troop rules. Held an Eagel up due to a pending Criminal Case which was later dropped. Had his BOR everything but held presentation. If it would not have been drooped then the WHoe thing would have been recinded What a Pain that Is.
Several of the members of this boa5rd I have met over the past year or so and they understand sdo those that so not nknow me personally I am what I am.