Retesting Revisited

[vpalango]

Training should be required for all adult leaders. Every adult leader for a Troop should have to attend Basic Leader Training (BLT) and then position specific training. BLT would give them a better understanding of what the boys go through.

Thanks to those who fought so we could be free.

I'd have to say, while this is a great idea in principle, in practice you would have a fairly large percentage of troops forced to fold, while many of the remaining troops would lose a percentage of their leadership.

As stated in the intervening post, councils and national will probably never go for this. I think every national organized club with leadership training has this struggle.

Some policies of the BSA force this compliance - for example, a Cub Pack can't pull a Tour Permit without a Baloo-Trained leader on the trip.

Something like this can be 'stepped into' and it sounds like the BSA is heading there, and I think that it will ultimately be a good thing for all troops.

I believe they'll need to offer a 1-year grace period for troops where the SM leaves before the charter comes due.

I really like the idea of a 'Certified Troop'.

Personally, I don't like this one much. If the "requirements" were already bound into what we are doing for the Quality Unit award, then I'd be ok. Also, isn't the "troop visit" role you describe one which the Unit Commissioner is supposed to be doing (at least in spirit) anyway? I just see this as somewhat redundant.

As to the mandatory training requirement, I do agree with it in principal. However, in practice, it requires that the council/district level offer enough training classes to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to get trained as well. I know in our district, the training staff "folded" for a while. End result, this last month was one of the only SM training sessions offered in the last two years in our district. Only the most motivated scouters were out looking at other councils/distrcts for training courses.

I guess my point is to remember that when you add "requirements" you are adding it as a burden to a volunteer somewhere to conform to it. Be careful what you ask for.....

[OldGreyBear]

It was the Training COmmittess, from the Districts to the COunil that wanted manditory training.

Just a rhetorical question, I sent my idea for the certified troop to the SE, who circulated it and the concensus was that the Qulity Unit and Commissioner Service already did what I proposed. I ask, if Quality UNit and the COmmissioners already do this stuff then why

-Do we constantly hear about Boards of Review and Scoutmaster Conferences that drag on for hours?
-Do we hear about Troops where the SPL is selected by the adult leadership because they dont trust the youth?
- Do we hear about Troops that have more By-Laws than Carter has liver pills?

I'll start off by saying because Quality Unit and the Commissioner Service doesnt assure the promise is delivered

[Mad Dog]

I think we have two seperate issues here.

Training, yes all leaders should be trained. The scouts deserve adult leaders with the proper training. I try to attend any an all training that is available.

But just because a leader sits through clasees and goes through the hands on training it does not mean that he/she will practice what they have learned once the trained emblem is sewn on the uniform and it does not mean that they will not create their own "troop" rules and policies.

[USforester]

I have to disagree with retesting for rank advancement. The SM during the conference should review the skills to see not only how well the scout has retained the requirements for that rank but also review who (which other scouts) signed off his passing the requirement as well as a reflection on that scouts patrol leader and his help in preparing the scout for the SM conference. We look at all these items. It shows me not only how much the scout has retained but how well the "trainers" are doing. The leadership requirement for the higher ranks involve leading scouts and also instructing them in skills. While I can observe some of this I also can tell how they are leading by how well scouts they've been charged to lead are prepared when they come for the SM conference.

While your examples are interesting and I have to agree that I required some review on knots and other items when I got back into scouting, I think that the basic skills of Second and First Class are things most scouts should know through life. As you never know when you'll be called upon to use the skills. Be Prepared!

Merit Badges are to me a bit different. While the required ones certainly provide additional life skills the elective ones I believe are designed to allow the scouts to explore new areas of interest for both knowledge but also as ways to possible choose a career. I know that these as well as scouting directed me to my career.

[EDGE]

As stated in the Scoutmaster Handbook, copyrighted 1990, "The purpose of the conference is to develop over a period of time an increasing level of understanding and trust between the Scoutmaster and each Scout. Once this relationship is established and begins to grow, the Scoutmaster can be increasingly effective in helping the boy get the most from Scouting". The conference is a form of counseling, a process of guiding someone to solve his own problems and set his goals.

In general when I do my conferences I will ask probing questions like what requirement did you find difficult and why, which were easy and/or the most enjoyable, what do you like/dislike about the outings, meetings, etc., if you change one thing about scouts (either scouts in general or our troop) what would it be, how is school going for you, what are you doing for fun besides scouts. All of the questions are open ended with the hope that the scouts will have a real conversation with me besides the usual yes, no, I don't know.

I do look over the requirements and see who signed off on them. If I discover by talking to the scout that he may not have completed the requirement as stated in the handbook then I will stop the conference, explain to him why I can't complete the conference, and tell him what he needs to do before we can finish the conference. Now I do this when I can tell he has not done the requirement as stated, such as 2nd class requirement 2g (cook a meal over as open fire) I stopped the conference because he use a coleman stove. I will then talk to the person who signed off the requirement an retrain him or her.

Our scouts teach other scouts. If they do not remember a skill from a requirement that they learned earlier they quickly remember it when it time to teach others. They will remember the skill when they teach others.

[Lynda J]

One of the best ways to see in your boys are learning the skills for rank advancement is to have them teach the new boys. Our troop uses our 1st Class and above to teach skills to Tenderfood and 2nd Class. I also will use a boy who has earned a badge to help me counsel a badge.
Not only does it reinforce what they are learning but increases their leadership skills.

[WifeofEagle]

Several of our scouts just returned from Summer Camp and although our Council has a fairly good first-year scout program it seems that our scouts don't have a clue on some of the basics that were signed off at summer camp as complete. This is becoming apparent in SMCs and BORs when asked simple questions like, "what would you do if you came across a hurry case at school"? They don't even know what a hurry case is!
As advancement chair, I suggested that we review the requirments signed off at summer camp (not under our troop leadership) to make sure the scouts actually did them.
One of our committee members pitched a fit and said that was against BSA Guidelines. I'm not saying we should take it away, let's just make sure they learned it!
What should we do?!?!?!?!?!?! help!

[evmori]

Several of our scouts just returned from Summer Camp and although our Council has a fairly good first-year scout program it seems that our scouts don't have a clue on some of the basics that were signed off at summer camp as complete. This is becoming apparent in SMCs and BORs when asked simple questions like, "what would you do if you came across a hurry case at school"? They don't even know what a hurry case is!
As advancement chair, I suggested that we review the requirements signed off at summer camp (not under our troop leadership) to make sure the scouts actually did them.
One of our committee members pitched a fit and said that was against BSA Guidelines. I'm not saying we should take it away, let's just make sure they learned it!
What should we do?!?!?!?!?!?! help!

Nothing wrong with a review especially after summer camp. I think it's a good idea. Ask your committee member who had the snit what BSA guideline prohibits a review.

[Mrw]

We get a list of the things the first year scouts have done at the summer camp program, but it is up to us to sign them off. We do ask that they demonstrate the skill type things. For the 5 mile hike - if they did it then they did it .

[lifescoutforlife]

Our camp gives a report at the end of camp to all SM's of the requirements that were done at camp, they do not sign anything off in the book.

[Lynda J]

We have our older boys teach the newer ones. Monday night we did Knot Relay. The boys had a ball. We do lines of about 4-5 boys and the SPL calls out different knots. Each boys on a team has to tie the knot down and back. Them another know it called. We normally use about 5 knots.
The boys that are better with knots help the ones that aren't as good. By the time we have done this a couple of times all the boys know the knots.

One thing Ialso do it. When a earns a badge at summer camp that I counsel I will have him help me teach that badge later. It gives him a chance to the skills he has learned and me a chance to make sure he has learned them. Plus it helps with his leadership ability.

[FrankJ]

Both of the summer camps I have been involved with provide a list of what was covered in the first year program by each scout. Their position is that it is up to the troop to decide if the requirement is met. I have had one scout who left mid week shown has completing requirements that were covered after he left so a review is certainly in order.

Most skills require continuing reinforcement. That is why first aide & CPR cards have to renewed periodically.

If a scout has earned a rank or has been legitimately been signed off on a requirement, it should not be taken back (can’t with the rank). The program should be continuing to reinforce skill of all scouts & scouters at all levels. If it make you happy, don’t call it a review.

[WifeofEagle]

Thanks to all of you!
I love the analogy of the CPR certification! What good have we done any of our scouts and the reputation of BSA in general if we hand out ranks and merit badges like it's Halloween candy?

Our troop has a neighboring troop that has MB Counselors that just "assume" the scouts have met the requirements and hand out MBs like crazy. I don't want our Scouts to have that weak an experience. When they stand up on that stage ready to receive that Eagle badge I want them to take pride in knowing they EARNED it!

[FrankJ]

Merit badges are slightly different. Once an registered counselor has signed off on the merit badge there is no review. The only other sign off is for the SM & something would have to be clearly wrong the the Sm not to sign the card.

[WVBeaver05]

Several of our scouts just returned from Summer Camp and although our Council has a fairly good first-year scout program it seems that our scouts don't have a clue on some of the basics that were signed off at summer camp as complete. This is becoming apparent in SMCs and BORs when asked simple questions like, "what would you do if you came across a hurry case at school"? They don't even know what a hurry case is!
As advancement chair, I suggested that we review the requirments signed off at summer camp (not under our troop leadership) to make sure the scouts actually did them.
One of our committee members pitched a fit and said that was against BSA Guidelines. I'm not saying we should take it away, let's just make sure they learned it!
What should we do?!?!?!?!?!?! help!

As others have said, the camps our Troop has attended don't sign off on the requirements in the first year program. Some provide a list of what has been covered, some don't.

Without researching it, I'm not sure the should by signing off. Seems to me that I recall that the SM keeps a list of who is authorized to sign off.

What should you do? My first action would be to notify the Camp Director or the Council Program Director. The can't / won't improve programs if they don't get feedback that changes are needed. And next year I would make sure we had a leader at least passing through the first year program area frequently throughout the week to observe / assist / report back.

I doubt that I would remove the sign offs, but I would certainly make sure that they knew the stuff. There are several ideas presented here that range from having these Scouts teach the skill to others (under close supervision) to just having additional work on the skills in the Troop program. The additional work could take the form of game/relays/etc. or it could be just plain training.

YiS

[evmori]

I think the key here is if summer camp provides of list of the completed requirements & hasn't signed the Scouts book. If this is what's happening (as it does at the summer camp we attend) then the SM has every right and should go over those requirements to ensure each Scout did actually complete them. This wouldn't be retesting since their book hasn't been signed off.

[mhjacobson]

My son completed some of his 1st clas requirements at a campout that he attended out of troop, and one of the leaders questioned whether or not he completed them (not at a BOR) up to his satisfaction. My son's response was "watch me" and went out and did them again at the next troop campout. What happened is that he earned his 1st class (at 10) AND the ASM has a new attitude toward the new kid who earned his Arror of Light early. (My son also knows that everyone in the troop knows that he passed 1st class twice!)