BOR and scoutmaster confrence.

[deweylure]

when I was a young scout I remember the SMC and also remember making a personal growth agreement at the SMC. I can still remember a few particular questions some 30 years later.
Now as an ASM I see a few parents pushing the scout and expect them to make Eagle. I had a father call me up to see if I could test the scout on the rank requirements. Needless to say I could not pass him. The next week this scout went to another leader and again was not passed. If scouts are trying to beat the system I am in favor of testing. Since it is not policy I am very careful to sign off anything.

dewey

[MisterChris]

I may have offended a poster and I want the poster to know where I am coming from.

Umm, Poster unoffended.

I am totally against troop rules and the troops that try to enforce them. Can you Loose your charter? Yep but as posted Numbers mean everything. Can the council tell you to stop using your troop rules yes and I hope they do. I have set on hearing for troops and what chenged were their rules and the leadership of the troop rather than pulling a charter.

Believe it or not, i agree with you inasmuch as troop rules add to or subtract from advancement.

I stated on another thread that I've helped eliminate several of the troop rules that existed in this troop when I first came on board.

Most scouts may have liked these extra reqs but I knew they were not BSA and that a parent could cause us grief, so I managed to get them removed.

First one was that Scouts were req'd to identify 35 trees in Winter and Summer by leaf, bark, and shape,
When they did, they got Nature MB
(I read the reqs and realized both of these were wrong. (I knew the 35 trees weren't in the reqs for Eagle, I wasn't positive how far they fell short of the reqs for Nature until I read up.))

I ditched both of these first. I had a parent question why her son had to do these when they weren't in the book, and that was all it took. I told her, he DOESN'T have to, he can if he wants to. After him no scout had it even suggested to them.

Next I was told that a knot board was required for Eagle. Scouts had to tie all knots and when that was demonstrated to me, they had to make a board with all on it, it was a req for Eagle.

I told them that I would not req anything that wasn't already in the book but I would review their knots with them when I gave them the BOR.

When I was a scout BORs gave tests. Dunno if that was BSA policy 1969-1978 or not, but it happened in our troop, so I simply went and did what I was used to.

To my knowledge I had been doing absolutely nothing that was against BSA policy. (After I eliminated the 'stuff' listed above.)

It came as a shocker to me that I was, and as a good scout I've changed our policy and retests are not going to happen. I've expressed concern over it but am certainly willing to comply rather than surruptitiously continue a disallowed practice that could be challenged.

See where I was coming from - I was simply verifying that the scout learned. I had very few scouts that did not pass a BOR, they always knew why, it was ALWAYS blatant unpreparedness (well, ok, except for the knots).

Guess I was a little silly to expect that things had changed little in 15 years. Well, anyway, we'll expect uniforms as well, since we're making sure the scouts have them. But we're going to comply on the 'no retest' policy. We'll review whether the scout learned using the oblique questions suggested.

I can see how we can work within the confines of this to still provide a quality program for little Johnny and his Mom, Dad, and lawyer.

[wagionvigil]

I have done too may Eagle BOR to count. I ask What was your Favorite MB and Why? which did you dislike the most and why?
Read some of the changes in the different MB over the years Talk about dumbing down. It is our job as leaders to stay current like it or not and walk the party line like it or not. I operated the rappel tower in ACtion D at the 2001 and 2005 National Jam,borees I am a firm believer in the Munter hitch as a belay method . BSA approved in Topping Out the works BUT the Head Honcho never used on eso we were not allowed to. I did not like it but I complied. in 2010 I will try again

[FrankJ]

I have to say if I was chief boyscout, advancement would be done a little differently. I am not so I too try to work in the confines of the program. The BSA has been doing this for over a hundred years so something must be working. I agree with deweyure that the requirements must by done correctly before they are signed off since there is little chance of going back. This is largely on the SM and his staff. I like what wagionvigil says about advancement and troop rules. Rank should mean the same thing from one troop to another.

As for as the program being made easier... True in some places but not in others. Take a look at recent changes (last couple of years) in the Citizen of ___ mertit badges.

Most of the skill in the rank advancement are not learned by demonstrating it one time required in rank advancement. I believe it is important to have a program that continues to renenforce the skills. That one reason we have scouts teach scout the skills rather than have ASMs do it. There no better way to learn a skill than having to teach it.

What this has to do with BOR I don't know.

[OldGreyBear]

Ok, so to recap, we all know you can't "require" a scout to be in uniform, although as Wagionvigil astutley points out, if a scout appears at an BOR without one, an obvious question is where is your uniform and you go from there.

The next point which gets thrashed about is retesting, the BSA offical policy is that there is no place in a BOR for restesting of skills. Now, that is in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book and a few other places. At this point normally I would sign off and the next poster on this thread, or very soon thereafter, would say how can we be sure the scout knows his stuff? Or what if he forgets, or what if it was signed off and he doesnt really know it? All questions I have seen asked, or nearly asked quite often, and they represent legitimate concerns. However, if your Troop has an active program using the methods of scouting, I don't see how a scout could forget any of the skills he has mastered. Once he learns and passes a knot, he is tieing it in patrol competitions or teaching it to younger scouts or using it for pioneering projects or in some facet of the troops program. Once a first aid skill is learned, the scout uses it when he teaches the subject, he is in patrol competition or when the troop program reviews the skills. The BSA advancement program is not meant as a one and done program, tie this here square knot and never worry about tieing it again is not the way the program is meant to be delievered. We build on the past, I dont know many people who took 2 years of french freshman and sophamore year who could pass a rudimentary quiz senior year if they havent regularly used their knowledge.

I see posts complaining about BOR that take hours because the scout is being retesting because the troop wants to be sure "their" scouts know their stuff. Well, it would be much easier on everyone involved if the troops program was designed in such a way everyone at the BOR knew the scout knew his stuff because it would be impossible for him not to because there are always opportunities to show first aid knowledge, knot skill, map and compass, etc.

Its not a one and done program

[Nuts4Scouts]

Micah - There is a big difference between how we preceive things as a Scout and how we preceive things as adult leaders.

A BOR's purpose is not just to make sure that a Scout has met the requirements for his rank, but to make sure the Troop is meeting its responsibilties & requirements with respect to that Scout & the others in its care.

Per the National Board of Review Training online at the National website -

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/suppl ... index.html

"But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved. Thus, a Scout may not be as responsible for his lack of preparation as might be thought. This does not grant carte blanche to the ill-prepared Scout, but it does give the board a way to understand what must be done and to assist the Scout in doing it."

As FrankJ stated -

"Most of the skill in the rank advancement are not learned by demonstrating it one time required in rank advancement. I believe it is important to have a program that continues to renenforce the skills."

If a scout truly doesn't remember his "first aid stuff" whose fault is it? Is it the Scout's fault because he did not memorise the first aid facts well enough, or is it the Troop's because they 1)signed off on a skill that was not really there, 2) did not give the Scout enough opportunities to practice & internalize that skill, or 3) both 1 & 2.

Should he "fail" the BOR because of it? That would depend on a LOT of other things that we can NOT generalize about here. But, again I quote the above training from National -

"This does not grant carte blanche to the ill-prepared Scout, but it does give the board a way to understand what must be done and to assist the Scout in doing it."

I think that answers a lot of your questions.

[hacimsaalk]

so, (Nuts4Scouts), am i understanidng this right? (correct me if im wrong). the BOR can quiz ( test, re-test, question, ect.) the scout about skills he has learned, but their decision cannot be based on what he knows. if he is not prepared, he automatically doesnt pass, but he is still given the came chance as everyone else.

and, it is the adults, or JASM, Troop Guide, ect. are responsible b/c they signed the book off.

could you give me a typical conversation that SHOULD go on in a BOR?

and, what is SM confrence suppossed to be? is this really suppossed to be the quiz?

[hacimsaalk]

I am totally against troop rules and the troops that try to enforce them. Can you Loose your charter? Yep but as posted Numbers mean everything. Can the council tell you to stop using your troop rules yes and I hope they do. I have set on hearing for troops and what chenged were their rules and the leadership of the troop rather than pulling a charter.

Believe it or not, i agree with you inasmuch as troop rules add to or subtract from advancement.

I stated on another thread that I've helped eliminate several of the troop rules that existed in this troop when I first came on board.

Most scouts may have liked these extra reqs but I knew they were not BSA and that a parent could cause us grief, so I managed to get them removed.





Next I was told that a knot board was required for Eagle. Scouts had to tie all knots and when that was demonstrated to me, they had to make a board with all on it, it was a req for Eagle.

I told them that I would not req anything that wasn't already in the book but I would review their knots with them when I gave them the BOR.

When I was a scout BORs gave tests. Dunno if that was BSA policy 1969-1978 or not, but it happened in our troop, so I simply went and did what I was used to.

To my knowledge I had been doing absolutely nothing that was against BSA policy. (After I eliminated the 'stuff' listed above.)

It came as a shocker to me that I was, and as a good scout I've changed our policy and retests are not going to happen. I've expressed concern over it but am certainly willing to comply rather than surruptitiously continue a disallowed practice that could be challenged.

See where I was coming from - I was simply verifying that the scout learned. I had very few scouts that did not pass a BOR, they always knew why, it was ALWAYS blatant unpreparedness (well, ok, except for the knots).

Guess I was a little silly to expect that things had changed little in 15 years. Well, anyway, we'll expect uniforms as well, since we're making sure the scouts have them. But we're going to comply on the 'no retest' policy. We'll review whether the scout learned using the oblique questions suggested.

I can see how we can work within the confines of this to still provide a quality program for little Johnny and his Mom, Dad, and lawyer.

i agree 100% with both you and Wagion. Our troop rules don not specifically require a FULL uniform. our by-laws read"a scout SHOULD wear AS MUCH OF THE UNIFORM as he HAS" thats it. we do "require" uniforms for BOR's ( if a scout doesnt have one, the troop will buy it.) really there is no excuse for not having one b/c we have spares in our troop room. so, if worse comes to worse, the scout can take one.

im sure after reading over this thread, and after hering all of the grief over our BOR from this parent, our by-laws and "extra requirements" will be gone over. heck, ive already started going through our by-laws looking for things that need changed, and ( as troop guide) ive been trhinking of things i need to change when signing off reqs. ( not the reqs, things i do.)

we stress nots alot. is there anything wrong with asking them to describe how to tie a knot, or asking them to tell the BOR what certain hitch starts a lashing?

[FrankJ]

You bring up a goog point Micah. BOR can and should ask general questions about skills the scout has learned. I do not consider that to be "retesting". The BOR should keep in mind what the requrement actually was. Using the bowline example, a scout may not remember exactly how to tie one, but he should at least know in a general sense and what the knot is used for. Unless the scout is clearly unprepared the skills review should be only a part of the BOR. How the scout feels about the program, what the scout is getting out of scouting, scout spirit & leadership in the later ranks are equally important items to cover. If you look at what a BOR is suppose to cover, the recommended 15 minutes is not a lot of time.

[hacimsaalk]

You bring up a goog point Micah. BOR can and should ask general questions about skills the scout has learned. I do not consider that to be "retesting". The BOR should keep in mind what the requrement actually was. Using the bowline example, a scout may not remember exactly how to tie one, but he should at least know in a general sense and what the knot is used for. Unless the scout is clearly unprepared the skills review should be only a part of the BOR. How the scout feels about the program, what the scout is getting out of scouting, scout spirit & leadership in the later ranks are equally important items to cover. If you look at what a BOR is suppose to cover, the recommended 15 minutes is not a lot of time.

really, in our troop 5-10% might be these "skills" questions on the BOR. 50% is how the troop is doing, how the scout is doing in the troop, ect. the other 40% is about the scout oustide of scouting-how they live the oath, what good deeds they have do, ect.

1 thing that will end your chances of passing, is not knowing the oath or law. to us, if you dont know the law or oath, you shouldnt pass. its the base of scouting, if ya dont know it, you truly cant be doing what you need to be doing in the troop, or in everday life.

[Scouting179]

The Adv Guide specifically says a BOR is REVIEW, NOT a RETEST.

[hacimsaalk]

The Adv Guide specifically says a BOR is REVIEW, NOT a RETEST.

so do our questions count as a review or as a retest??

[Scouting179]

If the questions are asking about the skills required for a rank, it's a retest. Read the Adv Guide, the BOR focus is review, goals, how to help the Scout in his Scouting, etc.; not to see if he can do certain skills. That part comes in getting sign offs and the SM Conference.

[evmori]

If the questions are asking about the skills required for a rank, it's a retest. Read the Adv Guide, the BOR focus is review, goals, how to help the Scout in his Scouting, etc.; not to see if he can do certain skills. That part comes in getting sign offs and the SM Conference.

In order to review, questions must be asked. Skills are not to be retested but asking questions is a must.

[FrankJ]

Questions about how a skill was demonstrated or what was done to meet a requirement would be a review. Requiring a demonstration would be a retest. IE tie a knot. Read the advancement guide. If during the review it is determined that the requirement was not met, remedial actions could be required. Any questions in doubt should be decided in the scout's favor

[hacimsaalk]

If the questions are asking about the skills required for a rank, it's a retest. Read the Adv Guide, the BOR focus is review, goals, how to help the Scout in his Scouting, etc.; not to see if he can do certain skills. That part comes in getting sign offs and the SM Conference.

so, once the req. is signed off, thats it. no more questions can be asked?? that means that helping the scout get through scouts ( get to eagle) is more important than asking him simple questions about things that will help him all his life (knots, first aid,ect.) what about the oath, and law? if a scout is asked to recite them, is it a RETEST??? and since the BOR isnt allowed asking questions, i guess they cant ask how the scout lives out the oath in his everday life ( a requirement for every rank). if they did, it would be a retest.

any scout can read over a requirement really quick and get it signed off. a true scout u can ask questions about a skill during his BOR, and he will be able to answer them without blinking.

[616kayak]

From what I am reading here there is no way to have a scout demonstrate something in order to review.

This isn’t true.

Retesting would have a pass or fail. The requirements have you test the scout. If they can’t demonstrate they failed to pass.

Review is used to gauge what a scout knows. A scout is asked to demonstrate something. Consequences will not be a pass or fail deal. Instead, consequences are used to make changes in the program and to know what the scout should be retrained in.

[Scouting179]

OK, let me clarify...asking what they did to complete a requirement is a review and ensuring it was done. Having them do it (like throwing them a rope and tying knots) would be a retest.

[ThunderingWind]

OK, let me clarify...asking what they did to complete a requirement is a review and ensuring it was done. Having them do it (like throwing them a rope and tying knots) would be a retest.

Best description of the difference I have seen. On the boards I have been on, the questions are of the first type (what did you do to get here). My favorite is "What can I do as an adult leader to make this a better troop for you?

[cballman]

My ideas a BOR is as what it states a review. you ask questions as to what the scout learned from the req. you ask him what he has taught to other scouts? you ask him what was his favorite part? what his dislikes about scouting? how he thinks as a scout what leadership role that he could best help the troop? and general questions as to what the scout see as the problems with the troop. what could you do as a scout to make the troop better? now as to a SMC it should be just that a conferance and if the SM does not sign of the req. then there must be a problem with either scout spirt or the just not prepared problem. IMHO either way if a certain scout does not know the skills and are signed off then I will go after the person who signed the book. Not the scout in front of me because he thought that that is all that was needed. older scouts who sign off in the book need to be held more accountable for what they sign off.