Problems with Local Adult Scouter

[scoutaholic]

I have an adult scouter in my area who has been scouting for years. He is on, and has been on, several district and council committees, as well as working with the scouts locally. He wears about 15 square knots on his uniform. The problem is he has his own ideas about how scouting advancement should work. He has even gone so far as to hold a fake Eagle Board of Review (for boys who had left the council) and turn in Approved Eagle papers for boys who had not completed the leadership requirements (as a district advancement committee member he had the pull to get it to national without the proper council/district approvals). He often volunteers to help at district/council/etc events. I'm not sure if they believe/trust him, or if they just don't know how to get rid of him.
When district boundaries were realigned a few years ago, the new district wouldn't grant him the power he thought he deserved, so he stayed on district committees in the old district. He then uses his district advancement position (in the wrong district) to offer to push approvals through for bad and/or incomplete Eagle Projects.

I avoid sending my scouts to him, because I'm aware of his common failure to fulfil the requirements, and I don't include him in the charter for my troop. I don't ask him to help with anything in our troop, but that doesn't stop him doing this for other boys in the area, or volunteering to help our troop boys one-on-one.

He is a neighbor, and knows several of the boys in my troop as well as their parents. He often volunteers to help with MBs, or he volunteers his shortcuts to get them through their advancements faster. His 'help' recently cost one boy his Eagle, and almost cost another one a few years ago. I heard him volunteering to help one of my troop boys with several MBs recently, and I just cringe.

I don't know how to handle this problem scouter. I have already left him off of our troop charter. If he is registered, he did it on his own, and probably through another district. He is my neighbor, and a member of the same church congregation, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea to bring up the problem locally. I could raise the issue with our Council, but I suspect that the only outcome of that would be to make enemies.

Anybody have any suggestions?

[maricopasem]

Have you tried going through ecclesiastical channels?

[Lynda J]

Since as SM you have to approve a MBC simply explain to your boys that he is not one that you will approve. YOu do have to look out for the boys first.
Are you by any chance an LDS unit? If so speak to someone in your Ward about the problem. If not then get with your DE and have a private sitdown talk.

[Billiken]

WOW, what a mess/problem.

He wears about 15 square knots on his uniform.

I don't have an Insignia Guide with me right now, but I thought one was limited to 9 knots. If so, copy the page from the Insignia Guide and mail it to him with a Post-It Note "Dear XXXXX, you're out of uniform."

The problem is he has his own ideas about how scouting advancement should work. He has even gone so far as to hold a fake Eagle Board of Review (for boys who had left the council)

I don't understand what you mean by fake. If a boy left the council then he's not registered in the council. Please explain.

and turn in Approved Eagle papers for boys who had not completed the leadership requirements

Doesn't a boy's troop have to verify this?

(as a district advancement committee member he had the pull to get it to national without the proper council/district approvals).

Doesn't the Council Executive have to sign all Eagle forms?

I avoid sending my scouts to him, because I'm aware of his common failure to fulfil the requirements, and I don't include him in the charter for my troop. I don't ask him to help with anything in our troop, but that doesn't stop him doing this for other boys in the area, or volunteering to help our troop boys one-on-one.

You are doing the right thing. I like Lynda's idea but if he's an approved MB Counselor, I don't think you can refuse the MBC. Not sure about this, though.

I could raise the issue with our Council, but I suspect that the only outcome of that would be to make enemies.

but you would be attempting to preserve the integrity of the BSA program and advancement process.

[Lynda J]

You can refuse to let your boys use a counselor. There is a counselor in our district that I will not allow my boys to use. I know that he shortcuts requirements and signs off things the boys haven't done. He has not been invited back to help at our yearly MBC. Last year he didn't sign off anything on any of the boys in his class even though they had done the work. In one class he signed off everythings. I had boys in both classes and the ones that got signed off told me up front that they hadn't done at least half of the requirements. The ones that weren't signed off told me exactly what they had done and what they still needed to do. We redid the badge because it was Citizenship of the Nation.

As SM you should approve the counselor. I maintain the list of registered counselors for our District. His name is on the list. But I don't let my boys use him.

[wagionvigil]

I would 1 Expect you are from a large Metro Council. COrrect?

This is a problem which must be addressed with the Council Executive Staff. If that Fails go to your Area Director of your Region.
If this is an LDS Problem you need to check with your churh leadership and tray to address the problem with them.
WOW!

[scoutaholic]

He wears about 15 square knots on his uniform.

I don't have an Insignia Guide with me right now, but I thought one was limited to 9 knots. If so, copy the page from the Insignia Guide and mail it to him with a Post-It Note "Dear XXXXX, you're out of uniform."

I'm not aware of any limit on square knots. The point I was trying to make here is that he is an experienced scouter and should know the program and how things work. Although, now that I think about it, I have no way of knowing if he really earned all of the knots he wears. If he would fake an Eagle for a boy, he could easily fake his own awards too.

The problem is he has his own ideas about how scouting advancement should work. He has even gone so far as to hold a fake Eagle Board of Review (for boys who had left the council)

I don't understand what you mean by fake. If a boy left the council then he's not registered in the council. Please explain.

and turn in Approved Eagle papers for boys who had not completed the leadership requirements

Doesn't a boy's troop have to verify this?

(as a district advancement committee member he had the pull to get it to national without the proper council/district approvals).

Doesn't the Council Executive have to sign all Eagle forms?

He just told me this last week about a case where two brothers (neighbor friends) had moved to Las Vegas, and 'they' (troop/council/district/I don't know who, in Vegas) refused to recognize some requirement he thought they had done. So he filled out the paperwork, forged the unit leader signatures, and signed off the board of review approval (without holding a review at all). He even conviced a fellow scouter to go along with his story in case someone asked questions. Then the council sent it on to national not knowing that it was all a sham. He must have either paid their reregistration, or done this before their registrations expired in December after they moved.

I avoid sending my scouts to him, because I'm aware of his common failure to fulfil the requirements, and I don't include him in the charter for my troop. I don't ask him to help with anything in our troop, but that doesn't stop him doing this for other boys in the area, or volunteering to help our troop boys one-on-one.

You are doing the right thing. I like Lynda's idea but if he's an approved MB Counselor, I don't think you can refuse the MBC. Not sure about this, though.

I could raise the issue with our Council, but I suspect that the only outcome of that would be to make enemies.

but you would be attempting to preserve the integrity of the BSA program and advancement process.

I prefer to preserve the integrity of the BSA program without making enemies in the process. That is why I asked the question here.

I would 1 Expect you are from a large Metro Council. COrrect?

This is a problem which must be addressed with the Council Executive Staff. If that Fails go to your Area Director of your Region.
If this is an LDS Problem you need to check with your churh leadership and tray to address the problem with them.
WOW!

I'm not sure I would call Salt Lake City 'large Metro', but it's not the back woods either.

The local LDS leadership is aware of the problem (although maybe not all the details), and they also avoid asking him to help with the local scouting programs. The LDS leadership the next level up (oversees 12 local units) is either unaware of the problem, doesn't know what to do about it, or doesn't think it is their place to do it. He has been on camp staff with events they have planned for the past 2 summers.

[wagionvigil]

OK you are a Metro Council. I have seen in my dealings that in these large concils things like this are allowed to get out of control where in a small say a calss 700 council someone files an official complaint and things get dealt with. Maybe someone out ther needs to file a written complaint with a copy going to both region and national. Local execs really hate it when that happens and they usually react swiftly

[maricopasem]

He just told me this last week . . . .

So what was your reply to him? As an LDS Ward leader I would want my Scoutmaster to tell me that info so I could deal with it. It would no longer be "avoidance," it would be a direct invitation to not involve himself with the YM of my ward. It's not his stewardship, for one, and he obviously has problems that would negatively affect the boys.

Tell him that what he told you about forgery, etc., has troubled you so much that you feel the need to visit with the Bishop about it. Even if you don't, which I think you should, it could probably scare him enough to stay away.

[Lynda J]

I have a real problem with someone like this being a role model for boys.
He is teaching them that it is OK to lie and forge if it suites you. How does this teach a boy to be honest and truthfull? This guy does not need to be associated with Boy Scouts. I don't care how many Knots he is wearing.
Wonder how many of those were forged or he simply bought them from the scout shop.

[riverwalk]

Wow, could be some Eagle lookalikes out there?? This certainly needs to be brought into compliance with the Advancement procedures. Districts/Councils, in my observation, have managed this well around here. Rather than focusing the greater attention on this knotted, or noted Scouter, there may just be an opportunity for someone like him to exploit the system. Like other things in our World...some will take advantage in any system where they may find a breach in the works. Meaning, the local Scouting program should by proper organizational structure, have appointed folks (known to Council) to submit this in a standard manner.

As far as the knots issue, there are guidelines related to these. But one isn't totally restricted from wearing this many "knots". Most language suggests that one should not wear more than that number, though some members do. But the BSA goes on to say that the Uniform not become cluttered. And that can easily happen to active Scouters, sometimes.

[maricopasem]

How did this ever turn out?

[summertop]

I had some differences of oppinion with our Scout Committee chair. He is the one that does ALL the board of reviews. Luckily, we were able to have a mature discussion without making enemies. In fact, we grew closer as friends, because of it. Since then, he has been great.

Unfortunately....he just moved!

[deweylure]

Knots obviously do not mean a thing to this person or the ideas of Scouting. He is not setting a good example to the scouts by the alleged crimes he commits. Forgery is serious,scout or not legal charges may be brought up.

I have a friend with many knots also,his have beeen earned over 40 years of service.

I hope more scouts do not become victims of this Scouter . Many people regard the Eagle rank as one of integrity. I would hate to see a young man put this on a job application or college app. and then someone question and find out the truth of how the rank was obtained. The persons integrity would be lost forever.

I hope the local council would do something if not what about National. I think your cause is true and just.

Dewey

[summertop]

scoutaholic, have you talked to anyone at council? My wife and I know many of the council leaders, so, I would be curious who you talked to and what their response was (we are in the same council).

What about the leaders at roundtable?

Also, who's signatures did this guy forge? Have they been notified that their signatures were forged?