Scout Spirit Question

[CapXK]

I recently had a friend relay a question from another friend (no, really, this has nothing to do with my Troop) about the Scout Spirit portion of advancement. It seems like the SM has denied the Scout Spirit portion of advancement for an Eagle Palm. This is causing no end of trouble at the Committee level with requests for the "firing" of the SM, etc.

Now, I don't know the particulars of the case. Is the Scout upset, or is it the parent? Is this a sudden change in the Scout's actions - he did make Eagle after all? How did the SM handle the situation, etc?

My understanding is that most Troop's have the Scout Spirit portion of the requirements signed off at the time of the SM Conference. I know that conferences should always have a positive, encouraging aspect even when dealing with unscoutly behavior. Should the SM document his dissatisfaction with the behavior of the Scout? Shouldn't there be some mutually agreed upon course of action for the Scout to take to remedy his deficiencies? Finally, doesn't the Troop Committe and the Chartered Organization Representative have final say over the "employment" pf the SM?

I've never had this problem and I am curious about other's thoughts on how to deal with this situation.

[616kayak]

In my troop:
Scout spirit involves following the law and oath. If the scout mostly behaves in a way that is against the scout law and oath he isn’t showing scout spirit. We have only used this once that I am aware of in the past 6 years for a problem scout. IT was also used on a group of scouts who caught a 5 ½’ gator.
My troop signs this off either before the SMC or while requesting a SMC


My opinion:
I would suggest having a conference involving the Scout, SM, and whoever else from your troop would be appropriate.

I feel the SM did his job by standing by his decision. A Leader who changes his mind every time some one disagrees is a follower. A SM must be firm, but kind. I do not know if I feel he made the right choice because I do not know the people in this situation.

Whatever actions your friend's troop decides to take remind them that it should be done fast to help the boy not fall behind his advancement schedule.

[FrankJ]

Without commenting specifically about the case in question…

The Scout Master has the first say about meeting various rank requirements. The SM opinions should be followed unless he is clearly wrong. The perfect SM will be trained and follow BSA guidelines. If a scout doesn’t meet a requirement the SM will have explained why and what has to be done to meet the requirement.

If a scout is not satisfied with the SM advancement decision, he can appeal to the troop committee. If the SM is not following BSA guidelines, he should be overruled. If this happens consistently something is wrong in the troop. Either the SM or the troop committee is not following policy. If I was the SM and the committee constantly reversed my decisions—they would be looking for a new SM.

Effective communication is the only way to handle situations like this. The SM should be talking to the troop commitee. If the troop has an unit commissioner, he would be a good resource.

The head of the charter org. (not necessarily the COR) has the final say in all leadership positions in the troop.

[WeeWillie]

We should be expecting more of our Eagles, not less. What has that Eagle done since his COH to be an example to the other Scouts in the troop. Did he get in trouble at school? Has he remained active? What is he doing to help new Scouts? What is he putting back into Scouting what Scouting has given him? If you answer these questions are not positively obvious, then I wouldn't bring it up.

Eagle Plam means a lot more than a few more merit badges that he probably already had.

[SM-890]

I remember my scoutmaster (way back when I was a scout) stopping us everytime we were caught doing wrong and asking us which law(s) or part of teh oath that we had just broken and how we broke it. It really instilled a lot of it to me and I am starting this approach with my new troop. It makes the scout address the problem, not the leader.

[Scouting179]

I know BOR denials can be appealed to district, council, and for Eagle, to national. I'm not sure of SM conference denials.

As for firing the SM, the SM works for the Troop Committee, and more specifically the Comm Chairman, and yes he can be fired.

[OldGreyBear]

The way I understand it is the adult leaders are chosen by the Chartering Organization and it is the Chartering Organization that does the "hiring" and "firing". Now, if the Committee Chair has a beef about the Scoutmaster, the Chair could go to the Chartering Organization and have the Scoutmaster removed, but it would be the Chartering Organization doing the removal, not the Chair (small comfort to the Scoutmaster). In the same manner the Chair could be removed by the Chartering Organization if a compelling argument is made by the Scoutmaster, or anyone else.

[FrankJ]

Advancement decisions including the SM's can be appealed to the troop commitee on up. This does not happen that much with the lower ranks because there are easier ways to resolve the issues.

In terms of leadership positions. Everbody works for the head of the charter org, if you can call it working. The charter org has the final say on who holds what leadership position. How that works out depends on the Charter org itself.

[summertop]

The "Scout Spirit" requirement is probably one of the vaguest requirements. Consistency and knowlege is the key. Make sure all the scouts and parents know what is expected for Scout Spirit. Then be consistent on enforcing it.

I have two rules for showing Scout Spirit.

1. Obey the Scout Oath. Keep in mind that part of the scout oath is to "Obey the scout law". If they are misbehaving, I have them recite the scout oath and law, then state where they have gone astray.

2. Be active in the troop. This means to attend the weekly meetings, courts of honor, and campouts. Often a scout will say, "I have that merit badge, do I still have to come?". My response is, "Yes, if you have the merit badge, you should be able to help teach it. If you don't come, you are not showing scout spirit."

[WeeWillie]

Next week I asked for a SM Conference with a Scout and his Mom to discuss his poor Scout Spirit. He will have 1.5 months to correct his problem before he is eligible to advance. If he doesn't pass Scout Spirit, it won't be a surprise to either him or his Mom.

[evmori]

You really don't pass or fail a SM Conference. The requirement reads "take part in". If the SM feels the Scout doesn't meet the Scout Spirit requirement then it doesn't get signed.

[RMM]

I agree, good communication with both the scout and the parent are key to peventing misunderstandings. We had two boys at Summer Camp acting out and very disruptive to the success of outing for the other youth. With the SPL and a second adult, I had counseling sessions with both boys and advised them if we did not see a rapid turn around in behavior, I would not be able to sign of the scout spirt section for advancement to Star. Both boys continued to act out and even turned it up a notch.

After we returned, the other adult leader made appointments to meet with the boys involved individually with their parents. To make a long story short, as planned - one boy spent the rest of his summer out of town and wrote me an apology letter and the second boy has actively stepped up to the plate and turned his behavior around 180 degrees.

By having the conversations with the boys and parents, we have better communication and the boys have a better idea of how they are expected to act by both the troop leadership and their parents. Working together we can solve the problems and get the young men "back on track"

If both boys continue their current path, then advancement will not be held up.

My two cents.

[evmori]

Excellent RMM! But we as adults don't hold up advancement of the Scouts. The Scouts hold up their own advancement by behavior in your post or not completing the requirements for rank.

[mhjacobson]

The requirement clearly states: "Participate in a Scoutmaster Conference!" The scout (or the parents) can request that the scout then move to the BOR. The SM is NOT in a position to deny the conference if someone who is qualified to sign off on the "Scout Spirit" section actually did so.

Remember, SM's are not Gods!

[deweylure]

I agree SM are not gods and to tell the truth I am getting sick of this make your own rules as you see fit. The program is there just embrace it and do not try to re invent the wheel.

dewey

[BlackEagle]

Of course advice and opinions are like belly-buttons, everyone has one.

We recently had a Scout that also did not display Scout Spirit. His next rank is Life, and I pointed out that the Life rank is the last chance, at the Troop level, to guide a Scout back to "the straight and narrow." Eagle BOR's are to late. But, a Troop Committee can adopt by-laws that define Scout Spirit. I encourage every Troop to do so, if they haven't already.

Also, if the SM won't let him go to the BOR, ask an ASM. The BOR of review can also decide to delay the advancement, based on answers from the Scout. BOR's are supposed to be a positive reinforement experience, not a belittling one. Perhaps the BOR can nudge the boy into the Scout Spirit.

[evmori]

Of course advice and opinions are like belly-buttons, everyone has one.

We recently had a Scout that also did not display Scout Spirit. His next rank is Life, and I pointed out that the Life rank is the last chance, at the Troop level, to guide a Scout back to "the straight and narrow." Eagle BOR's are to late. But, a Troop Committee can adopt by-laws that define Scout Spirit. I encourage every Troop to do so, if they haven't already.

Also, if the SM won't let him go to the BOR, ask an ASM. The BOR of review can also decide to delay the advancement, based on answers from the Scout. BOR's are supposed to be a positive reinforement experience, not a belittling one. Perhaps the BOR can nudge the boy into the Scout Spirit.

What by-laws could a Troop Committee adopt that define Scout Spirit?

[wagionvigil]

Nope! you cannot!

[joat]

Scout Spirt is described in the Boy Scout Handbook. Why would a troop committee feel the need to rewrite what has already been done?

[BlackEagle]

Let's say that a Scout has shown poor judgement either inside or especially outside of Scouts (ie: wrong crowd), and comes up for advancement. The advancement is denied by the BOR because of lack of Scout Spirit. The Scout appeals to the District or Council. If the Troop does not have by-laws in place that define and quantify Scout Spririt, event though it is defined in the Scout Handbook, the appeal will usually go in favor of the Scout.

Check some Troop's web-sites. Most of them have their by-laws posted, with Scout Spirit defined in some way.