Second and First Class Requirements

[wagionvigil]

I have never been a fan of the idea of working on Second class and first Class requirements at the same time. I was just wondering if I was alone.

[WVBeaver05]

I'm voting dislike, but not too strongly.

It was quite a shock when my son entered Boy Scouts a few years ago and I found out about this change.

I think it reduces the "progressive" learning that we are all accustomed to. It's tried and true, and I assume that the professional educators would change it if it didn't work.

I think the ability to work on them simultaneously is there to facilitate the "First Class first year" goal. If we were going to go back to the way it was before, I would restructure some of the requirements.

But then, comparing my old (1960's) handbook with the current one, there are quite a few things that I would change!!

YiS

[evmori]

I voted like. While I am not a fan of FCFY, there is a lot of overlap among these ranks.

[616kayak]

I do not like FCFY either.
I voted like. It makes my job a lot easier. I do not have to teach the same thing as often because I can group more people with different rank together to work on reqs.

[CapXK]

Dislike. I think skill retention is better under the old system. Of course, I also miss tracking, signalling, preparing a wild food/drink and uniform shirts without collars.

[Mrw]

I voted like although I can see both sides.

Even though they can work on all three ranks at once, our boys tend to do most of tenderfoot before they really get into second class and most of that before first class. The ranks really do build on each other and we teach them that way.

[FrankJ]

I voted like. If for nothing else, I like a good first year program at summer camp. I can certainly see the argument against as well.

[vpalango]

I voted dislike, but just barely.

I think there should be SOME pre-requisites between ranks that spaces them out, but I think other requirements could be worked on at any time. So I guess I don't really mind it, other than the fact that we have eliminated almost all-sense of pre-requisites in the program. (as discussed in another thread.)

YIS,

[Lynda J]

I like it is some ways. If a Scout has completed a requirement for Second Class I see no reason if he does a First Class requirement the next week he shouldn't get credit for that requirement.

[Chief J]

I voted dislike, however not too strongly. I agree that many requirements build on themselves, and overlap.

I think the rush to First Class with programs like First Class/First Year do not help with quality scoutcraft skill retention. I think there needs to be some time for the Scouts to truly comprehend and be able to utilize the skills before jumping ahead.

Chief J

[OldGreyBear]

Its not the speed at which one advances that effects skills retention as much as a program that allows those skills to be used, resued and become as one with the scout.

[Billiken]

I voted LIKE.
However, I do "see" the points behind making the boys complete the ranks in order. Which I actually believe does happen.

On the LIKE side:
One example, we have a meeting with one of our local mayors next week for 1st Class Requirement 5 (discuss rights and obligations of a U.S. citizen....). Attending will be a new scout, 2 tenderfoots, and 3 second-class scouts.

Swimming: If the boys are in the pool for the 2nd class requirement, why not let them swim the entire 100 yards for 1st class?

First Aid: We train our scouts for 2nd and 1st class "situations" at the same time.

A QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO DISLIKE SIMULTANEOUS PROGRESS TOWARDS FIRST CLASS:

Should a boy NOT be allowed to work on merit badges until he's 1st class?

[wagionvigil]

Lets see how to word this. No mb Except First Aid?

[vpalango]

I voted LIKE.

A QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO DISLIKE SIMULTANEOUS PROGRESS TOWARDS FIRST CLASS:

Should a boy NOT be allowed to work on merit badges until he's 1st class?

I have no problem with scouts, prior to First Class, working on certain Merit Badges, but I do thinks some of them do need pre-requisites, though not necessarily rank. For instance, I could make the argument that one must earn the Hiking MB prior to the Backpacking MB, as one (at least to some extent) builds on the other.

Just some thoughts.

[ThunderingWind]

When viewed as a whole, 1st and 2nd class are enough unique that each requirement can stand alone. Tie a square knot. Or pack your gear for the camping trip.

However, I prefer the building upon previously gained knowledge to earn the next level. Apply the use of a square knot in a real world application (what ever it may be). What gear did you not need and why? What gear was missing and why?

[evmori]

Should a boy NOT be allowed to work on merit badges until he's 1st class?

A boy should be allowed to work on MB's as son as he wants to regardless of rank.

[lifescoutforlife]

Merit badges should be earned at anytime, boys that go to camp the first year work on the first year program 1/2 the day and then depending on what camp they go to get to work on 1 or 2 merit badges they like. I feel the fcfy program works on keeping kids in scouts. Our troop uses it and it helps the older scouts keep skills by letting them teach the younger ones.

[mhjacobson]

One of the advantages of allowing boys to go through the requirements of multiple ranks at one time is the ability when at a camping activity to working with a group of boys on related skills. It actually makes more sense, and serves to help reinforce the skills as they are learned.

Why not move from simple knots to more complex knots and to lashings? One skill builds upon the other and the scouts learn how to apply the knots which is far better than learning the knots for one rank and then use them for the next.

Smart scouts have learned how to ladder requirements from one merit badge to the other. My son learned that, for example, by Doing American Heritage with Citizenship in the Nation and Citizenship in the Community, he could use the basis of something that he learned for a requirement in one to assist in the next. He also learned the same for Emergency Preparedness, First Aid, Safety and Fire Safety.

We adults can learn from his "working the system!"

[deweylure]

I believe in the first year first class philosophy. If this goal is not set you will have scouts who remain at a rank fo along time.

Working an allk rank requirements is a good idea,I can do first aid for a group and not worry that I must stop on rescue breathing etc. Also the rank rquirements also can be used ing skill building troop games like the knot relay or ways to carry and evacuate an injured person.

Dewey

[SM-890]

I don't have a definate stand either way on the FCFY idea. I can see good and bad in it. As for MB's, I think certain ones should be held until the scout reaches 1st Class, especially Eagle required ones. Let them start with some fun badges. At camp this year, our new scouts were in the FCFY program and they had to take First Aid MB as part of it. I wanted them to wait for that, not due to rank, but due to age and knowledge retention. All the ranks have First Aid skills that build on the previous rank and I think the First Aid MB should follow that same progression.