BSA v. Organized Sports

[Chief J]

I think all you can do with regards to Scouts vs. Sports or Band is plan your calendar as best you can and accept the fact that those Scouts who participate in sports/band/other activities will be unable to attend some of your functions.

As for those parents who think you should plan around their schedule or their son's schedule invite them to get involved as a trained registered leader and come to the planning meetings and provide input to the planning process.

My son is very active in school sports as well as the Troop, but there are many meetings and outings that he cannot attend due to conflicts. I explain the facts of life and setting priorities to him, and he goes on. Fortunataly I believe that we offer a good year round program so the Scouts can pick and choose. We also try to schedule the big trips (i.e., Washington DC, Gettysburg, etc) for the early summer months when school sports have taken a break.

Best of luck to all in this endeavor,
Chief J

[summertop]

Scouts will participate in sports! It's a fact! It does make running a scouting program more difficult. However, the boys are worth the effort. At least half of my scouts do multiple sports. I explain to them:

1. Sports are good!
2. There will be conflicts.
3. I will do anything I can to help them earn their Eagle.

That's about all we can do.

[vpalango]

I've found the conflict with other activities to be more with the parents than with the boys. Essentially, I have fielded the question of "Why isn't Johnny advancing as much as Davey?", and they don't like the answer that Davey is not as involved in other activities, and as a result devotes more time to advacing as a scout.

It's not too big a problem most of the time, but sometimes you do run into some issues.

[summertop]

Luckily, I've had the opposite from parents. They come to me with guilt about their son's sports/activities interfering with scouting.

[Billiken]

Chipotle, the Mexican fast food restaurant chain has a billboard just outside of downtown Cleveland:

Nobody cares that you won state in high school.


Frankly:
I don't understand what it has to do with selling Mexican food.
I do understand what it has to do with life.

[scoutaholic]

...Nobody cares that you won state in high school....I do understand what it has to do with life.

We had one boy in our troop who was paid and committed to go to our summer camp. Then he discovered that his All-Stars baseball team might go to some championship game in California that week.

I told him that he was committed to go to camp, that I couldn't refund the money, and I hoped he could find a way to still make it to camp.

My ASM suggested that striking out at a few strategic times might disqualify the team from the competion and he could go camping. The ASM and I agreed that we were probably better at striking out than the boy, and we could teach him how. (In the end, they didn't make the competition, and he did go to camp without any strategic stike-outs).

Apparently the boy wasn't happy with that option, and he repeated it to his Mother (probably with some embelishment), and now (I find out several weeks after the fact) Mom is upset with the scout leaders for not supporting her son in his baseball.

[JazerNorth]

I guess I'll be the first to point out the obvious... You asked the scout to do something that is dishonest. If he was an NFL quarterback, he could have went to jail. The scout didn't need his scoutmaster telling him to throw the game. Thank goodness the scout had enough character to "do what is right"!

[ccmason]

"Mom is upset with the scout leaders for not supporting her son in his baseball." Scoutaholic

Mom was probably upset with "My ASM suggested that striking out at a few strategic times might disqualify the team from the competion and he could go camping. The ASM and I agreed that we were probably better at striking out than the boy, and we could teach him how."

What kind of leader tells a kid to throw a game so he can go camping?

Scouts is not the only place for kids to learn valuable life lessons. I learned just as much from sports as I ever did in Scouts. The more I read from this site the more I understand that there is a lot of inconsistancy in the leadership of the Scout troops. I saw this when I was a Scout. Good honest leadership teaches the kids valuable lessons that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives. Bad leadership that cuts corners and expresses dishonest values, teaches kids they can do that later in life.

SMs that don't understand parents frustrations only need to read through their own posts to figure out why.

[cballman]

I hate to be the devils advocate but what would you say to a coach that told a scout to use fireworks at camp just to get kicked out just to play ball? on both counts it is wrong and I as a parent would be very upset with both coaches and scout leaders. If a child has a dream of playing ball the so be it. if another child has a dream of scouting then so be it. I will support both of these kids to the fullest of my abilities as a scout leader, parent, and FRIEND. to want a child to throw a game is ILLEGAL. if I was the parent I would want that scout leader brought up in front of the committie and or the council for teaching things that go against the Twelve points of the Scout Law. This might be a matter for the proper authroities to take.

[ccmason]

Of course you are right, as a parent I would be upset with a coach for doing that....

then again, thats a hypothetical scenerio and that coach didn't just admit it on a website....

[FrankJ]

My ASM suggested that striking out at a few strategic times might disqualify the team from the competion and he could go camping. The ASM and I agreed that we were probably better at striking out than the boy, and we could teach him how. (In the end, they didn't make the competition, and he did go to camp without any strategic stike-outs).

I read that as a misunderstood attempt at comedy rather than a serious suggestion that the scout do less than his best.

[cballman]

it might have been an attempt at comedy, a bad attempt. the boy and his mother were upset with the scoutleaders in question so whether or not it was not a laughing matter to the child. put you self in that childs place how would you feel? lets see go out and wreck your car so you dont have to go to the wedding, see how bad that sounds different age groups someone might take anything you say as serious. whether it is said to a child or an adult. sometime when we think something alot of times it just needs to be a thought and nothing more. a lot of feelings could get hurt. been there done that will do it again sooner or later. but I am trying to get better to use the filter between my thoughts and the mouth.

[scoutaholic]

My ASM suggested that striking out at a few strategic times might disqualify the team from the competion and he could go camping. The ASM and I agreed that we were probably better at striking out than the boy, and we could teach him how. (In the end, they didn't make the competition, and he did go to camp without any strategic stike-outs).

I read that as a misunderstood attempt at comedy rather than a serious suggestion that the scout do less than his best.

OK. OK. The attempt at humor was obviosly not conveyed in the message here. EVERYONE there at the time understood it as such, and nobody expected the boy to actually even consider throwing his game. I suspect that when the boy repeated it to his mother, he may have left out the attempt at humor part, and she may have taken it ALMOST as badly as some of you did.

BTW, Even if we seriously had suggested that he throw a game:
1) there is no legal govening body that oversees the fair play of little league baseball. No matter what he did to lose the game would not be illegal. (unethical and disloyal - yes, dishonest - maybe, but not illegal)
2) doing less than his best in order to lose a game would not put the boy or his team in danger, and is not really a good comparison to breaking safety rules (or laws) at camp.

[Lynda J]

When a person becomes a coach he does not take an oath that he will follow the Boy Scout Laws. The coach's objective is to win a game.

As a Scout Master you are charged with teaching boys right from wrong.
And even to suggest that a boy throw a game as a joke it wrong. And if you have that attitude you don't need to be working with a troop.
Would you suggest that a Scout steal something he can't afford to buy.
Sorry telling a boy to throw a game is no different than telling him to steal or lie. All are very very wrong.

Don't make school activities and Scouting compete. Sorry Scouting will lose in the long run especially when it involves sports. Instead of browbeating the boy for not going to camp because his team had advanced and was going to a National Final. You should have been bragging on him. Showing him how proud you are of him and his team for being that good. In doing that you would have made him feel that HE was important. Not just when he was at Scouts but all the time in everything he did. What happened to "DO YOUR BEST" in your troop?
It isn't just Do Your Best at Scouts it is Do Your Best all the time
Boys are going to be in sports , band, drama, and many other things that will sometimes come before Scouting. If you make them feel they always have to put Scouting first they will stop coming.

[summertop]

...Boys are going to be in sports , band, drama, and many other things...

Yes, and that is a GOOD thing. Boys can be active in many different activities and still get their Eagle. Furthermore, activities such as sports and performing arts help the boys grow and learn.

1. I am a Scoutmaster...Many (Most) of my scouts participate in competitive sports. Often, practices/games conflict with troop meetings and campouts. Still, the scouts are progressing towards Eagle without problems.

2. I am a father of five boys...My sons participate in organized sports. My oldest (15) has his Eagle. My next (13) is Star with one more month before Life. He only needs two more campouts for his camping merit badge. He already has the remaining required/electives merit badges for his Eagle. My next (11) is on schedule to get his Eagle before he turns 13.

What I find is there are some boys that have a drive towards Eagle and there are some that don't. I don't think sports really affects scouting. Those that have the scouting drive get their Eagle even with sports. Those that don't have the scouting drive...well, you would still have to push and prod them even if they were not in sports.

[gwd-scouter]

Over the years we have had many scouts involved in sports. They drift in and out of scouts, attend meetings sporadically and outings almost not at all. I've tried to let these scouts know that they don't necessarily have to chose one or the other (scouts vs. sports) but that they could try to at least be aware of what is going on in the troop, get involved when they can, and make some kind of effort towards scouts rather than just dropping it completely.

A tale of three scouts, all heavily involved in sports:

Scout 1 (Life), missing in action with the troop for past two years. Turns 18 in less than 6 months now. For the past two years, every few months or so, scout would pop in to ask what he needed to do to make Eagle. He was told he needed his POR. Scout would attend during a troop election, accept a position and then disappear for another six months or so. Sports was always his reason. Even with encouragement, discussions about POR he could have that would not necessarily require his presence at every meeting and outing, he still just wouldn't make the effort.

Scout 2 (Life), missing in action with the troop for almost three years. Turns 18 in June. Same scenario as above. But, this scout has (I think) finally come to realize that he either accepts a POR and actually does it or he will miss the Eagle he says he wants.

Scout 3 (Life). Goes to the same school as Scout #2. Is involved in all the same sports as Scout #2. Is one year younger than Scout #2 and will probably make his Eagle in the Spring. He served about 7 months as our SPL and rather than sit back and glide he decided he wanted to put his name in for election to serve another 6 months. At the PLC meeting last night he mentioned to me that he had a big school project due next week and wouldn't be able to stay for our planning campout coming up this weekend. He did say he could come Friday and stay until after dinner Saturday, but then would have to leave. No problem at all I said and thanked him for making the effort. A year ago, this scout would have simply said he couldn't come at all.


I find a lot of truth in summertop's post: What I find is there are some boys that have a drive towards Eagle and there are some that don't. I don't think sports really affects scouting. Those that have the scouting drive get their Eagle even with sports. Those that don't have the scouting drive...well, you would still have to push and prod them even if they were not in sports.

In the case of my 3 scouts above, Scout #3 is the one I think that truly gets what scouting is about. Scout #1 lost interest a long time ago and perhaps his family was pushing him to get his Eagle and that's why he would show up every six months or so. I remember Scout #2 really got into the Scouts when he was younger, but his interest waned at around 14 and I think he, too, has been hanging on just because of his parents. He has, however, shown a bit of renewed interest (although I can't say real enthusiasm). We'll see how things turn out.

Scout #3 is that rare breed of Scout that has learned and continues to learn something of value along the way during his years in Scouting. Will he make Eagle? Undoutedly. But I think that will just be the capstone to an enjoyable and rewarding scouting experience for him.

[Chief J]

My ASM suggested that striking out at a few strategic times might disqualify the team from the competion and he could go camping. The ASM and I agreed that we were probably better at striking out than the boy, and we could teach him how. (In the end, they didn't make the competition, and he did go to camp without any strategic stike-outs).

Apparently the boy wasn't happy with that option, and he repeated it to his Mother (probably with some embelishment), and now (I find out several weeks after the fact) Mom is upset with the scout leaders for not supporting her son in his baseball.

If these are the values you are trying to teach your Scouts, or allow any of your adult leaders to teach, please do us all a favor and leave Scouting. I find this shameful and disgusting!

Chief J

[maricopasem]

If these are the values you are trying to teach your Scouts, or allow any of your adult leaders to teach, please do us all a favor and leave Scouting. I find this shameful and disgusting!

What a remarkably humorless group this is. The jocularity and the self-deprecating nature of his interaction with the boy is obvious in his original post, let alone his explanation as to the joke.

Maybe one or two ought to lighten up a little bit. BSA isn't a military-style boot camp. Have some fun.

[Lynda J]

No Boy Scouts isn't boot camp. They don't teach the Scout Laws in boot camp.

To even suggest to a boy that he cheat, steal or anything of the such simply isn't acceptable to us leaders that strive to instill in the boys we work with the priciples of the SCOUT LAWS, OATH, and CODE OF CONDUCT. Cheating, throwing a game simply are not part of this group and I don't know many of us that would ever take such an act as a joke.

[JazerNorth]

I can see the sarcasm in scoutaholic's post, but can a boy? To my knowledge, sarcasm is learned behaviour that is hard to find in youth. The boy obviously took the suggestion as real (not sarcasm). That is why the suggestion, in jest or not, should not have been made. Youth take what is said by an authority figure as real and factual. The youth in the story had to confirm with his mother that he shouldn't throw the competition. That is why it shouldn't have been suggested. It was the boy who was affected by the statements, not us leaders. The story points out very clearly that the boy took the suggestion as real. VERY REAL.

JazerNorth